#31  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:07 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
partially why i believe the simplest thing is simply to deny relief from tees/drop zones. "no" is fairly cut and dried...
Deny all relief, or deny only Optional Relief?
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  #32  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:20 PM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Deny all relief, or deny only Optional Relief?
IMO casual has to be allowed at TD discretion but I would have no issue with denying Optional and I believe "Free Optional" should definitely be denied. Why make that rule more complicated for such a minimal amount of usage?
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  #33  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:52 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
IMO casual has to be allowed at TD discretion but I would have no issue with denying Optional and I believe "Free Optional" should definitely be denied. Why make that rule more complicated for such a minimal amount of usage?
I think both directions that you can apply a fix can be pretty simple.

(1):
802.05.D current: The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc.
802.05.D modified: The line of play is the imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through and beyond the center of the marker disc, or in the case of a tee pad or drop zone, the center point of the tee line.

or (2):
803.02.D current: A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group.
803.02.D modified: A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group, except for when throwing from a tee or drop zone.

or (3):
803.02.E current: No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters.
803.02.E modified: No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters, except if optional relief is being taken from a tee or drop zone.


Fixing the definition of line of play also fixes the vagueness of how to take casual relief from a tee.

Personally, I think you should be able to take optional relief from a tee/dz (to stick with the "at any time" verbiage), but I don't think it should ever be free. The reason free relief is available is because a last-spot-IB might be in a bush or on a hill or stuck in a crappy location, and the player shouldn't be "double penalized". Tees/DZs are typically not stuck inside a bush or in a spot with bad footing. True, sometimes they're placed in "tricky" spots, but that's done on purpose by the TD. A player shouldn't be allowed to redesign the course with no penalty.
My personal preference would be (1) and (3) from above be implemented.
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  #34  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:10 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
The phrase "at any time" (in the Optional Relief rule) is pretty strong and has no reason to be there other than to reinforce that it is always an option. I'd say this makes Optional Relief from a tee pad OK.
Not refuting or arguing here, and maybe going a little out of my depth, but I enjoy looking at previous versions of the rules in situations like this.

2006:
803.06 Unplayable Lie: A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play, and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie

2011:
803.05.C Optional Relief: A player may declare that he or she is taking optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie that is no closer to the hole, and on the line of play. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.
803.06 Optional Rethrow: At any time, a player may elect to rethrow from the previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

2013:
803.02.A Optional Relief: A player may elect at any time to take optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie which is no closer to the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw shall be added to the player's score.
803.02.B Optional Re-throw: A player may elect at any time to re-throw from the previous lie. The original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

2018:
803.02.D Optional Relief: A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.
809.01 Abandoned Throw: A player may choose to abandon a their most recent throw by declaring their intention to the group. The abandoned throw and one penalty throw are counted in the player's score, and the player plays from the lie from which the abandoned throw was made. Penalty throws incurred by the abandoned throw are disregarded.

The phrase "at any time" snuck into the rules in the 2011 update in the optional re-throw rule. It replaced the phrase "the player is the sole judge as to whether a lie is unplayable." The 2006 rule was written with the intention of "a player may choose at any time" but with different verbiage (so the rest of the group could not say "looks playable to me, get your ass down there and throw").
In 2011, "at any time" only existed in the re-throw rule, not in the relief rule.
In 2013, this oversight was corrected, and "at any time" was also applied to the optional relief rule. I view this as a contrast to the casual relief rule, where the group presumably has some say in the matter. "You can't take casual relief there. It's just a little mud. That doesn't qualify as a casual obstacle." vs "I don't care what you guys think, I'm going to take optional relief and I don't need to give you a reason why."

In 2018, the rules remained essentially unchanged from 2013, except for renaming Optional Re-throw to Abandoned Throw.
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  #35  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:32 PM
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kenjiac kenjiac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
A line by definition has no width. So...sort of a trick question.

I would prefer optional relief to be disallowed in the case of tees/drop zones.
I to agree no optional relief unless it's for safety. If the pad is wet or slick then you can tee behind or to the side if flags are placed beside the tee.
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  #36  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:57 PM
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Discette Discette is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjiac View Post
I to agree no optional relief unless it's for safety. If the pad is wet or slick then you can tee behind or to the side if flags are placed beside the tee.
I was under the impression we were talking about optional relief following a penalty, not optional relief in general.
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  #37  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:02 PM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discette View Post
I was under the impression we were talking about optional relief following a penalty, not optional relief in general.
we were at first...
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  #38  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:11 PM
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Discette Discette is offline
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we were at first...
And with that,



















I prefer the vinegary North Carolina style of BBQ.

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  #39  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:16 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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I prefer the vinegary North Carolina style of BBQ.
As a western NC native ....



... SC mustard sauce is pretty good too.

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  #40  
Old 12-23-2019, 08:01 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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When it comes to determining the "mandatory line", one of the ways it's described in the rules is:
Quote:
If no line has been marked for a single mandatory, it is defined as a straight line extending indefinitely from the center of the mandatory object on the incorrect side, perpendicular to the line connecting the mandatory object to the previous mandatory object, or if there is no previous mandatory, the tee.
(emphasis mine)

Where exactly on the tee? It seems this is a similar kind of question we ran into here.....
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