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  #361  
Old 07-12-2020, 11:41 AM
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ChrisWoj ChrisWoj is offline
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Originally Posted by InDaWoodsDiscN419 View Post


Thank you! Leave Disc alone, it is NOT "ball" Golf. If you want to play ball golf, do so.

Heard mention of sand traps? No Thanks. I sincerely wish that our game was named Disc

Bocce or Disc Skeet or ANY other name other than Disc Golf. What other name could it have

possibly been called? I have thought about it before, we wouldn't know any different, if

Steady Ed had used a different appellation. Disc golf is not and never will be the same

as traditional golf, thank goodness!
I have a feeling the rules of Disc Bocce and Disc Skeet would have been distinctly different from the rules we know and love....
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  #362  
Old 07-12-2020, 01:29 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
Trying to make everything that doesn’t appeal to you pleasing is silly. Just find something else if you just can’t get your fix with DG. Shields and tiny targets so we can watch people miss more?? Ugh. Just watch Ninja Warrior or something if you absolutely MUST see people’s dreams die in spectacular fashion lol DG is great just the way it is.
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Originally Posted by jakebake91 View Post
Okay. Still my question still stands. Should we
also make surgeons operate blindfolded? Would take considerably more skill.....
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Originally Posted by LateWesternSky View Post
I'm on your side with the whole "making putting harder" thing, but this is a really bad analogy.
You're missing the totality of the reasoning for shields. Shields don't cause more players to miss like a smaller basket would. Shields make 2/3 or 3/4 of the circle the "good side" where putting is still the same -- thus having a much greater premium on accuracy of approach shots than currently. In fact the Preserve course could have made many of those NAGS approaches more interesting and requiring more skill with shields. Shields also would make the edge of that 2/3 or 3/4 circle a place where the player would have to hyzer putt, anny putt, turbo or scoober putt to curve around the edge of the shield -- a skill mirroring "reading the green" in golf and a skill we currently don't have in our sport.

So no, it's not to make putting harder. Putting, assuming you have the skill to land your approach where you should, is still the same. But this would add more skill to approach shots and add a skill of a curvy putt game that all players would have to add to their game.


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Originally Posted by Casey 1988 View Post
I still like my idea of 24-25 chain baskets for max that only use 2 layers of chains, and banning current manufactures from making baskets making these baskets the way they are now with the 3 layers of chains and 27+ sets of chain with some at 36 or almost 40 sets of chain. It was nice seeing the Innova baskets at a disc golf Pro Tour/National Tour event in the Portland open a few years ago in 2018 and they were still using the old Innova Discatcher Pro baskets with he 24-25 set of double chain and not the current 27 where 95% of putts go into the basket.

The part to me is we need to see tournaments in Pro Tour/National Tour not be these open boring flat courses like The other course at Emporium that is a temporary course on a Traditional ball Golf course or the other course at Utah Open that is also a temporary course on a Traditional ball Golf Course, also other open boring courses like The one for Gentlemen's open at Las Vegas, not a part of the National Tour/Pro Tour or Las Vegas Open a National Tour event. That is what I do not like are these open courses that do not present a challenge or are a temporary set up on a Traditional ball Golf course for top level pro players. The Tournament at the Preserve showed that the more open Disc Golf Course work if you make the way open long and then still have some tight holes. In fact I could barely tell this Preserve Disc Golf Course other then a few wide open holes and the like were even a former Traditional ball Golf Course.
See to me, the Preserve was LESS enjoyable because it had less risk to deal with. I stated on the other thread that the high number of NAGS approaches made it much less exciting to me. Excitement is hinging on every shot, every throw, every putt -- or making such a great play that you're on the 1-yard line. To me the Preserve played like college overtime -- the excitement, what little there was, came about because of the score. But giving everybody the ball on the 25-yard line is making it LESS challenging to score.
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  #363  
Old 07-12-2020, 02:24 PM
jakebake91 jakebake91 is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
You're missing the totality of the reasoning for shields. Shields don't cause more players to miss like a smaller basket would. Shields make 2/3 or 3/4 of the circle the "good side" where putting is still the same -- thus having a much greater premium on accuracy of approach shots than currently. In fact the Preserve course could have made many of those NAGS approaches more interesting and requiring more skill with shields. Shields also would make the edge of that 2/3 or 3/4 circle a place where the player would have to hyzer putt, anny putt, turbo or scoober putt to curve around the edge of the shield -- a skill mirroring "reading the green" in golf and a skill we currently don't have in our sport.

So no, it's not to make putting harder. Putting, assuming you have the skill to land your approach where you should, is still the same. But this would add more skill to approach shots and add a skill of a curvy putt game that all players would have to add to their game.




See to me, the Preserve was LESS enjoyable because it had less risk to deal with. I stated on the other thread that the high number of NAGS approaches made it much less exciting to me. Excitement is hinging on every shot, every throw, every putt -- or making such a great play that you're on the 1-yard line. To me the Preserve played like college overtime -- the excitement, what little there was, came about because of the score. But giving everybody the ball on the 25-yard line is making it LESS challenging to score.
What if we didn't play high end pro tournaments on courses that are so dang easy for the pros we have to find artificial ways to make it more challenging? There's gotta be enough of those courses in the country to fill up a full touring schedule.
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  #364  
Old 07-12-2020, 05:10 PM
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dreadlock86 dreadlock86 is offline
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you can't just have an NT at any course. and that issue has been discussed at length already.
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  #365  
Old 07-12-2020, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
You're missing the totality of the reasoning for shields. Shields don't cause more players to miss like a smaller basket would. Shields make 2/3 or 3/4 of the circle the "good side" where putting is still the same -- thus having a much greater premium on accuracy of approach shots than currently.
I think a shield goes way too far to just looking like a gimmick. And I don’t see how it adds anything at all. I understand I’m not exactly in a position to criticize, but I'm confused what the new tool in the kit would be for TDs.

If a TD wants to make one side of a basket the wrong side, they already have solutions for this. Hazard areas, OB, or the “Three Musketeers a.k.a. Swiss Rolls” that they put up at USDGC.

Heck, some decent size potted cedars would do the same thing as a shield.
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  #366  
Old 07-12-2020, 09:51 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by jakebake91 View Post
What if we didn't play high end pro tournaments on courses that are so dang easy for the pros we have to find artificial ways to make it more challenging? There's gotta be enough of those courses in the country to fill up a full touring schedule.

I know it's been said many times, but:
  1. - There is more to hosting a tournament than the course.
  2. - There is CERTAINLY more to hosting an NT/DGPT/Major than the course.
  3. - ALL out-of-bounds is artificial. Despite what people may say, the creek/pond/cart paths/whatever, does not have to be marked out-of-bounds. That is the TD's or designer's decision. In general, OB is a design element that is an essential part of our sport. (that's why all these "in or out?" questions with discs lying on the edge of water typically should correctly answered "we don't have enough information").
  4. - yes there MAY be a multitude of courses that haven't yet been played for big events that meet your criteria, but without the right TD, local club support & team, community support, sponsors, travel accommodations, off-course amenities, a big event just cannot be held there. I know of at least three such complexes in Texas alone, but two of those will likely never have a big event without the community investing in more hotel space, off-course amenities, cheap or easy travel to the location, etc.
  5. - You still don't see it; the shields proposal is not about making the course "more challenging." It's about adding to our sport, trying to make a better sport. Those of us supporting the shields proposal for pro events would like it on EVERY big pro event course, even the Maple Hills and Idlewilds of the world. That proposal still puts a higher premium on approach shots and it adds an additional skill to the game to make it a BETTER sport, even on wooded courses (see I didn't say more challenging or harder there). You know it's kinda like in basketball where as you go up a level, it's the same basic game but the rules change slightly to make it better and add challenge at the higher levels -- more game minutes, longer 3-pt line, putting in and then having shorter time on the shot clock, restrictions on zone defense, etc, all as you progress up towards eventually making the pros. This is unlike, from what I've seen, the "overall smaller target" people who DO think putting is too easy for pros and just want to make it harder. They are not seeing the more holistic issue.

Again, as a fan, I'd like to see challenge on every single throw, OR make it risk/reward to get a NAGS on a throw after the one you're taking now. I'd also propose that the PDGA put out guidelines for TDs and course designers of championship caliber courses. Ironically I kinda already know that the designers have done that on their own, as a group/organization, I just think PDGA should validate their efforts and memorialize it. And, btw, I've NEVER said the Preserve was "dang easy". Dude, it is no such thing. Neither is Emporia Country Club or any course I've seen a big event on. People just need to understand that relatively speaking, at 40-50 years of maturity our sport is still very young and is at a stage where it could still utilize tweaking to make it a better sport. I'm just taking a thought, an idea, and backing it up with reason and facts. I'm not just spouting "I just don't like _____," or "I just like it the way it is and it doesn't need changing." Interestingly, I haven't yet had someone argue against the reasons in the shield proposal above. I've had some legitimately say they don't like the aesthetics of it (and I agree that could be worked to improve), but I haven't had anyone say the reasons I stated above for the shields idea don't work or wouldn't do what they purport to do. Ultimately, until one of us develops the idea and mitigates the aesthetic reasons, it's still in our heads; but I think (hope?) that once it's tried it'll be better in practice than it sounds.

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Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
I think a shield goes way too far to just looking like a gimmick. And I don’t see how it adds anything at all. I understand I’m not exactly in a position to criticize, but I'm confused what the new tool in the kit would be for TDs.

If a TD wants to make one side of a basket the wrong side, they already have solutions for this. Hazard areas, OB, or the “Three Musketeers a.k.a. Swiss Rolls” that they put up at USDGC.

Heck, some decent size potted cedars would do the same thing as a shield.
But all of those are permanent or "more artificial" and can't be changed from round to round ... nor could they be taken down for when Ams or others play. Like I said, I do get the aesthetic argument against shields. I need to work on that.

Last edited by araytx; 07-12-2020 at 09:55 PM.
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  #367  
Old 07-12-2020, 10:08 PM
Rastnav Rastnav is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
But all of those are permanent or "more artificial" and can't be changed from round to round ... nor could they be taken down for when Ams or others play. Like I said, I do get the aesthetic argument against shields. I need to work on that.
There nothing intrinsic to marked OB and hazards that can’t change from round to round. Same for potted plants. Even wooden posts set in concrete. Or, the GOAT of solutions, hay bales.

If your issue is that you will need to clearly tell the players that these things have changed, the same goes for shields.

As to the “artificial” nature, shields are more artificial and alien to the current sport than all of those. You can argue that it’s not different enough from those other factors, but I believe that’s a tough argument to make. I think it would look like it fundamentally changed the nature of the sport, even though, again, valuing placement in relation to a side of the basket is already a design element. I think it would look like the sport was taking ideas from mini-golf.

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  #368  
Old 07-12-2020, 11:08 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post

See to me, the Preserve was LESS enjoyable because it had less risk to deal with. I stated on the other thread that the high number of NAGS approaches made it much less exciting to me. Excitement is hinging on every shot, every throw, every putt -- or making such a great play that you're on the 1-yard line. To me the Preserve played like college overtime -- the excitement, what little there was, came about because of the score. But giving everybody the ball on the 25-yard line is making it LESS challenging to score.
I get that but we never saw the wind that happens in that part of the USA until we see that on course of that style where wind at 20 mph or above is usually prevalent, I can't say for Certain the course was too easy for the top Pro players. I will agree several holes were too wide for the players and that over time they could be made to play tighter. I will agree that some the hole was a tad too open and could have for the time used a pole in the ground for a mandatory ether around the pole on the outside or on the inside until a tree gets big enough to be that mandatory there is a sign on. Another thing and to me this is really a tad gimmicky, is made some of the sand traps or bunkers play like water OB.
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  #369  
Old 07-12-2020, 11:12 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
There nothing intrinsic to marked OB and hazards that can’t change from round to round. Same for potted plants. Even wooden posts set in concrete. Or, the GOAT of solutions, hay bales.

If your issue is that you will need to clearly tell the players that these things have changed, the same goes for shields.

As to the “artificial” nature, shields are more artificial and alien to the current sport than all of those. You can argue that it’s not different enough from those other factors, but I believe that’s a tough argument to make. I think it would look like it fundamentally changed the nature of the sport, even though, again, valuing placement in relation to a side of the basket is already a design element. I think it would look like the sport was taking ideas from mini-golf.
Like I said above, I get that you (and others) just don't like the idea. I have heard the "it looks like mini-golf" before. But if we can get past the aesthetics in developing (and believe me I won't put a proto out there Until I do), then we can focus on the part you do agree with and see -- that it's putting a premium on placement of approach shots. And there is now ay the current valuing the placement of approach shots (as currently a design element) comes close to this.

As far as "fundamentally changing the sport," well, as I said before it's no more so than high school basketball without a shot clock is fundamentally different from college or pro WITH a shot clock. Or college basketball with any type of zone you want to run on defense is fundamentally different than NBA basketball where there are many restrictions against certain types of zone defense. As pointed out.

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  #370  
Old 07-13-2020, 06:03 AM
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I love these "make the baskets smaller" discussions from pros...

Pros: Putting is too easy. Make the baskets smaller

Also pros: OMG THESE STUPID BASKETS SPIT OUT TOO MUCH



If there's an event with smaller baskets the spit outs will be amazing and VERY frequent. Can't wait to see the wailing and gnashing of teeth over that fiasco. The rants on Instagram will be epic.

And as far as the shields go...Why not just place the basket in a better position? Plant a bush on one side of the basket, put the basket near a tree or some other obstacle? It'll have a similar effect and look a heckuva lot better.

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