#21  
Old 09-20-2019, 09:58 PM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Some things are opinions.

Some things are facts.

Everyone gets to decide for him/herself.
If you aren't willing to discuss, you shouldn't get in a discussion.

But hey, that's just like, my opinion man.
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  #22  
Old 09-20-2019, 11:42 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
What's your working definition for something being "unfair"?
My working definition it terms of sports officiating in general (for disc golf and for all sports) is that the organization responsible for the event has the same level of playing conditions for all competitors in that event on that day.


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Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
If you aren't willing to discuss, you shouldn't get in a discussion.

But hey, that's just like, my opinion man.
Doof:

I did discuss. I asserted that IN PRACTICALITY an official making calls and only following one group is not having the same conditions for that group as the other groups. The official in this group has not a thought about what kind/if/how retaliation or "holding to a particular standard is gonna be treated for him/her (he's not playing) whereas the groups that are officiated in the standard way Iby the players in the group) do have that thought. THAT is having different playing conditions. No, it doesn't change what is and isn't a violation (by definition) but it may very likely change when those calls are made. [Example:] It would be like a tennis match where one player has linespeople and a chair umpire making the calls on one side of the net, and on his opponent's side of the net he calls his own lines. The rules are still the same but the way calls are evaluated to be made is way different.

That's what I stated before. Since you brought it up, I'll add here the constant refrain about "foot faults not called by pro players" as evidence to support my position.
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  #23  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
My working definition it terms of sports officiating in general (for disc golf and for all sports) is that the organization responsible for the event has the same level of playing conditions for all competitors in that event on that day.
Wouldn't it be fair if each group in one division had an assigned official (even if no other divisions had officials assigned)?

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  #24  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:24 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
...
I did discuss. I asserted that IN PRACTICALITY an official making calls and only following one group is not having the same conditions for that group as the other groups. The official in this group has not a thought about what kind/if/how retaliation or "holding to a particular standard is gonna be treated for him/her (he's not playing) ...
The player who never commits violations - or would call any violation on themself - also has not a thought about what kind/if/how retaliation or "holding to a particular standard is gonna be treated for him/her.

Seems fair to me.

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  #25  
Old 09-21-2019, 07:19 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Wouldn't it be fair if each group in one division had an assigned official (even if no other divisions had officials assigned)?
Yes. Most definitely.


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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
The player who never commits violations - or would call any violation on themself - also has not a thought about what kind/if/how retaliation or "holding to a particular standard is gonna be treated for him/her.

Seems fair to me.
Yes. Everything you stated in the first paragraph is absolutely true. Now, what evidence Steve, would you guys show that such occurs often, much less the vast majority of the time in PRACTICALITY, not just for him/herself, but for the calls needed to be made on his/her cardmates? I'm inclined to believe that such is NOT the case in reality.

Guys, I've never argued against that position/thought process philosophically. I hope I was clear that I just haven't seen such in my experience in REALITY. I mean, we actually have a rule about what happens when the group cannot come to a majority ruling. That's a pretty good indicator to me that the RC is covering both what's philosophically correct and how it is to be applied practically.

(You also conveniently ignored the tennis analogy. Isn't that spot on to what was originally asserted about one group having an official to make active calls while others do not?)

Last edited by araytx; 09-21-2019 at 07:23 AM.
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  #26  
Old 09-22-2019, 12:56 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Yes. Most definitely.




Yes. Everything you stated in the first paragraph is absolutely true. Now, what evidence Steve, would you guys show that such occurs often, much less the vast majority of the time in PRACTICALITY, not just for him/herself, but for the calls needed to be made on his/her cardmates? I'm inclined to believe that such is NOT the case in reality.

Guys, I've never argued against that position/thought process philosophically. I hope I was clear that I just haven't seen such in my experience in REALITY. I mean, we actually have a rule about what happens when the group cannot come to a majority ruling. That's a pretty good indicator to me that the RC is covering both what's philosophically correct and how it is to be applied practically.

(You also conveniently ignored the tennis analogy. Isn't that spot on to what was originally asserted about one group having an official to make active calls while others do not?)
I'll lay out my current mindset here, in case it needs modification.

As for the tennis analogy, I fully agree that having officials on only some cards would be unfair. But, probably for the opposite reason that most people think. I think players on cards with an official would quickly start to lean on that official. The players could completely ignore the other players and not even worry about making self-calls. Which means there would be times when no one was watching. It's human nature to be less careful about following rules when no one is watching.

All in all, I think being on the card with an official would be an unfair advantage. There really just aren't that many rules violations on the top cards. The official would not have much chance to have a negative impact on the players.

Even at the lowest levels of play the rules follow pretty closely with how players naturally play after merely watching other players. Therefore, most players follow the rules pretty closely most of the time. Players who could not tell you the correct definition of Line of Play usually stand in the correct position behind the disc to throw anyway.

My point was that I can't think of any rules that would be good weapons to use in a "retaliatory calls war". Or any rules violations that players are routinely making without their knowledge. Especially considering that players could easily avoid any violation after being called for it just once.

The rules that are lesser-known tend to be the ones where the thrower could get an advantage from knowing the rule. Like Optional Relief. No way to use that against another player.

This fear that we are all violating secret rules right and left in sanctioned tournaments and are at the mercy of anyone who actually wants to call violations just doesn't fit with what I've seen on the course. Maybe there could be one or two more calls per group per round in Am divisions, but very few at the top.

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  #27  
Old 09-22-2019, 11:58 PM
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Putt for D'oh Putt for D'oh is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post

All in all, I think being on the card with an official would be an unfair advantage. There really just aren't that many rules violations on the top cards. The official would not have much chance to have a negative impact on the players.
This is a tough one because I agree with what you are saying here, BUT it may have an effect on some players knowing there is an official walking around with them but not others. Just some weird "you are being watched" get in their head, even if the person watching shouldn't have any more or less keen eye to see the mysterious fouls that are being ignored.

i think a bit issue here really is what happens after a foot fault call. It rarely happens on video, and when it does it is amazing conversation here because someone blows up and it has ramifications for the rest of the round, or longer.
All one has to say is put Climo Stokely into youtube or google for all the discussion. The first stuff that comes up is the multi foot fault calls.
For whatever reason it seems at every level foot fault calls turn into combative situations.

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  #28  
Old 09-23-2019, 11:00 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
My working definition it terms of sports officiating in general (for disc golf and for all sports) is that the organization responsible for the event has the same level of playing conditions for all competitors in that event on that day.
Interesting take. The fact that all competitors are expected to know the rules and enforce them on other players as well as themselves, for me, is the "same level of playing conditions for all competitors in that event on that day" that you speak of.

It seems a bit crazy to me to suggest that correctly enforcing the rules is unfair in any way. That's only true if you accept that all players not knowing the rules is OK.
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  #29  
Old 09-23-2019, 10:06 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
Interesting take. The fact that all competitors are expected to know the rules and enforce them on other players as well as themselves, for me, is the "same level of playing conditions for all competitors in that event on that day" that you speak of.

It seems a bit crazy to me to suggest that correctly enforcing the rules is unfair in any way. That's only true if you accept that all players not knowing the rules is OK.
My assertion, all along, has been that in reality the part in red doesn't happen. Not uniformly consistently and correctly on most cards. Call me crazy if you think it does. So I agree with your premise about the expectations; it is just not the (current) reality. I see Steve's counter point, that my position my be unfair for different reasons -- but ultimately, all groups aren't playing under the same conditions when some have an official and some don't.

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  #30  
Old 09-24-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
My assertion, all along, has been that in reality the part in red doesn't happen. Not uniformly consistently and correctly on most cards. Call me crazy if you think it does. So I agree with your premise about the expectations; it is just not the (current) reality. I see Steve's counter point, that my position my be unfair for different reasons -- but ultimately, all groups aren't playing under the same conditions when some have an official and some don't.
The presence or absence of an official really is irrelevant about fairness.
All groups aren't playing under the same conditions when players are not consistently enforcing the rules.

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