#121  
Old 10-27-2020, 01:50 AM
Orioles_Lefty Orioles_Lefty is offline
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Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
The issue of it being too hard to tell if it's a foot fault or not is pretty easy for me. If it's too hard to tell with the naked eye, then it isn't a foot fault. The benefit of doubt goes to the player, then you continue to enjoy the rest of the round.

Please don't change this rule. I just friggin' figured out how to do it and it's fun!
This.
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  #122  
Old 10-27-2020, 09:00 AM
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Nick Pacific Nick Pacific is offline
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Originally Posted by mizunodave View Post
Almost nobody jump putts inside 50 feet and anytime someone makes a putt outside 50' it's cool as hell and should be encouraged.

For step putting, if it were such a big advantage everyone would do it. I estimate 80% of players choose not to step putt, so if it isn't a big advantage they can't be "cheating" so let them do it.

I don't see the problem or a need for any rule changes. It's fine.
Exactly. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, Chris Dickerson is the only top elite putter in MPO who jump/step putts inside 50 feet. All the other guys stand and deliver (Ricky, Paul, Eagle, Simon, Calvin). If it was such an advantage, they would all do it.

Considering how insanely hard these guys train and practice, to get even a one stroke advantage a round they'd change everything and anything if it worked. The fact that they don't says a lot.

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  #123  
Old 10-27-2020, 09:16 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
The issue of it being too hard to tell if it's a foot fault or not is pretty easy for me. If it's too hard to tell with the naked eye, then it isn't a foot fault. The benefit of doubt goes to the player, then you continue to enjoy the rest of the round.

Please don't change this rule. I just friggin' figured out how to do it and it's fun!
"benefit of the doubt goes to the player" only comes into play if there is a split decision on the card. i.e. if 2 of you think a player foot faulted and 2 players think he didn't, the benefit would go to the player.

the standard of evidence you should reference instead is found in "801.02 Enforcement":
Quote:
Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. A call must be made promptly to be enforceable (except for misplays).
(emphasis added by me)

pretty much the same principle in regards to how you actually apply it, different wording.

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  #124  
Old 10-27-2020, 09:16 AM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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Originally Posted by Nick Pacific View Post
Exactly. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, Chris Dickerson is the only top elite putter in MPO who jump/step putts inside 50 feet. All the other guys stand and deliver (Ricky, Paul, Eagle, Simon, Calvin). If it was such an advantage, they would all do it.

Considering how insanely hard these guys train and practice, to get even a one stroke advantage a round they'd change everything and anything if it worked. The fact that they don't says a lot.
Kevin Jones. He smashes outside 33 feet all day.

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  #125  
Old 10-27-2020, 09:22 AM
autocrosscrx autocrosscrx is offline
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Per UDisc stats, the top 6 C2 putters are Matt Bell, Kevin Jones, James Conrad, Dickerson, Wysocki, and some dude that I never heard of.

Dickerson, Conrad, and KJ definitely do some kind of step/jump. Honestly haven't paid close attention to Wysocki or Bell in C2.

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  #126  
Old 10-27-2020, 09:49 AM
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Golden Tuna Golden Tuna is offline
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Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
The only problem I have with step/jump putts is that way to frequently, you simply can't tell if there was or wasn't a foot fault.

I think I'd like it if the circle was basically extended from 10 to 20 m. But it would probably reduce the # of questionable foot faults.
You may have just unearthed the catalyst for this change. Since it IS so difficult to tell whether an infraction took place, moving the circle back to 20m probably will reduce the overall number of questionable calls. And, I think 20m is still close enough that people will continue to run those putts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by disco40 View Post
How to define it to include step putts but exclude other throws, though?
I assume it is pretty simple language, "A player may not cross the perpendicular line of play inside the 20m circle until balance has been established behind the mini." My pessimism tells me that the rule will be completely ambiguous (like a lot of the book) if it is re-written...

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Originally Posted by ru4por View Post
I guess I don't get it. If you just remove C1 and apply the rules to C2, what is the problem. If you want to throw a roller, knock yourself out, just don't run up or follow through. Shrug, I don't jump or step putt. I can easily stand and deliver any throw to the basket from 100 feet. I honestly don't understand who cannot.

Not advocating for the rule change, but I guess it does not really impact me.
Agree on all accounts. The step/jump putt is more of a utility shot for me if I'm dealing with odd footing or obstructions. Otherwise, stand and deliver.

It would be interesting to see how many pros add a spin putt to their quiver if the circle is moved back.
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  #127  
Old 10-27-2020, 11:33 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Tuna View Post
...

I assume it is pretty simple language, "A player may not cross the perpendicular line of play inside the 20m circle until balance has been established behind the mini." ...
So the throwing arm can't break the plane?

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  #128  
Old 10-27-2020, 11:37 AM
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Jay Dub Jay Dub is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
So the throwing arm can't break the plane?
Why is this not a problem or question for the putting rules?
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  #129  
Old 10-27-2020, 11:57 AM
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Golden Tuna Golden Tuna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Tuna View Post
I assume it is pretty simple language, "A player may not cross the perpendicular line of play inside the 20m circle until balance has been established behind the mini."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
So the throwing arm can't break the plane?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Tuna View Post
My pessimism tells me that the rule will be completely ambiguous (like a lot of the book) if it is re-written...
Par for the course?

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  #130  
Old 10-27-2020, 01:13 PM
disco40 disco40 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Tuna View Post
I assume it is pretty simple language, "A player may not cross the perpendicular line of play inside the 20m circle until balance has been established behind the mini." My pessimism tells me that the rule will be completely ambiguous (like a lot of the book) if it is re-written...
Yeah, the path of extending the circle is the one that simplifies the change and is probably the best bet. Though I find 20 meters to be borderline absurd, with ~15 meters being a more reasonable distance to enforce this. It's straightforward enough that it's possible to change, but also gets a bit silly in terms of enforcement and course-marking requirements below the pro level.

The alternative is what I was really asking about. Is there some technical change to the disc golf throw that would take away the step putt without screwing people over in less-common but important situations? I think that path would lead to unintended consequences.
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