#121  
Old 03-22-2017, 01:33 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
only way to make that hole better without adding distance to it is massive amounts of artificial OB similar in concept to hole 10 at USDGC that still gives someone the option to go for it but still has a player have a somewhat difficult shot to the green if they lay up.

Basically, the hole this year was hole 10 with no OB.
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
..except Hole 10 was a legit par 4.

Hole 4 could also be made better by shortening it to get more 2s from the Gold players.

Or, I'd be tempted to put a big required casual relief area out there where the tee throws land. The back line could be an inverted U, so the farther off-line your throw lands, the farther back you must move to get out of the special area.

Hole 10 was the most powerful hole at this tournament. That and the length reminded me of the 444 foot tunnel hole at BRP (which was hole 3 for The Majestic). Then I watched the video and saw why.

Here are the X-rays for both:




Hole 10 at Waco is a little better tuned to test skill at the lower end of the range by not letting just anybody get a 4, and giving more 5s and 6s to 900 rates players than 950 rated players.

The BRP hole is better tuned to test skills at the higher end of the range by allowing the better players to get more 3s. But, the slope of 4s, 5s, and 6s, at the lower skill levels is pretty flat.

I think you both somehow got off track. The hole they were talking about adding the double "reverse mando" (must go left or right, but not middle) was hole #4 -- See JC's post #98 starting that conversation. And Steve's already posted data & charts saying that one was definitely one, and easiest on the course all three rounds.

Maybe Robert was comparing #4 to hole #10 at the USDGC and Steve you thought he was talking about #10 in Waco??
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  #122  
Old 03-22-2017, 01:45 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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Maybe Robert was comparing #4 to hole #10 at the USDGC and Steve you thought he was talking about #10 in Waco??
Correct - I was referring to hole 10 at USDGC, not Waco
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  #123  
Old 03-22-2017, 01:48 PM
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F. Howl F. Howl is offline
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Whenever I see an advertisement mando right off tee, I honestly think of a windmill in putt putt.
I think many do, and I've never understood why. Do you feel it drops us down a peg or two on the ball golf-putt putt spectrum?

Or is it the aesthetics of the thing? If a course had the means...how would you feel about these being triple mandatories (larger, though):
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  #124  
Old 03-22-2017, 01:59 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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Triple mandos are very very tricky to get correct.

When done correctly - like the original one (original hole 15 at USDGC) they are very good. But most of the time, they are simply boring.

What made 15s so good was the hole was hard even without the mando; the mando didn't make it hard, rather harder. so many times, like the Waco one, a mando like this is used to simply change an easy hole into a somewhat tricky hole. Hole 7 at USDGC is a perfect example of this.

But the additional element of this mando concept, from a design standpoint, has to be risk reward.

Using the three triple mandos in discussion (Waco, 7 USDGC, original 15 USDGC) you will see three very different risk reward scenarions.

Waco - very very little risk. No one stepped up and was forced with a decision. Pucker factor? sure. But no one laid up. Also, very little reward. Since I would guess 90% of players or better made the mando on their first attempt, they were not rewarded for making the mando.

7 USDGC - this hole has risk, for sure. The fact that the mando is so far down the fairway creates execution risk. However the design flaw, IMHO, in this hole comes with the reward. A player who makes the mando on their tee shot certainly makes birdie at least 75% of the time, however a player can still come up short of the mando - i.e. throw a shot with no risk - and still have a 40 foot putt. This completely takes away some of the reward of player A who made it through it one throw. Better than waco? No doubt. Better than a wide open 270 foot hole? No doubt. But I've always wanted to see this basket raised where someone short of the mando didn't have a putt for 2.

Another triple mando I've respected is at the Meadow in Greenville, NC (hole 10). The hole is only 130 feet and wide open. A triple mando is about 40 feet short of the pin. The basket here is elevated so even those that lay up are forced with a tricky putt to pass under the horizontal portion of the mando and have enough height to go in.

Old 15 - This, is a perfect triple mando. Players were forced with execution risk due to the size of it and then distance from the tee. If you missed it, your drop would leave you about 400 feet out over more OB to a slopping pin. This has bogey written all over it. A player who lays up is forced with that same shot and unless the layup is exactly perfect, they are forced with it from an awkward angle. A player who successfully passes through the mando off the tee, even just 20 feet, is now rewarded with a at most 380 foot relatively open shot to the pin where almost all players of the skill to play in the open division executive to at least have a jump putt for birdie.

Three examples of the exact same design concept and three completely different outcomes.

The key to doing this right is nailing that risk reward.

Last edited by _MTL_; 03-22-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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