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Old 09-04-2018, 12:08 PM
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Default Potential hole on new course - Thoughts?

Hey all,

I've been working on a course for a few months now. One of the most debated holes is the one that I've made a rough diagram of and attached. I have no problems changing anything, but the course overall is designed to be "most" appropriate for a strong intermediate player, 900-925 rated. Those weaker than that should find it quite challenging and finish over par, and pros will find it a little on the easier side, touring pros would likely finish 7-12 under on the current layout.

The biggest question for the attached hole in my mind is if it looks challenging enough for that theoretical 900 rated player. I don't want it to be too elementary, but I also don't want holes where you hit one gap and automatically have a putt for birdie.

I should also clarify that the "road" is not a real road, it's a very lightly used gravel path. I wouldn't put the hole, and especially basket, that close to a real road.

Please let me know what you think and ask any questions you'd like to know.

Thank you!
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2018, 12:15 PM
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Could the old backstop be removed?

Fence in fairway would bother some.
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:32 PM
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I suggest moving the tee forward and to the left just to the right of the first section of trees so it's tougher to hit those gaps on the left tree line. Widen the 16' gap to the right of the back stop if possible to make that drive/route more inviting. It looks a bit too easy in the diagram for players to play out to the left and go down the open fairway by the gravel road, even if you make the road and across OB.
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:40 PM
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I think that's a first left gap hole, all he way.

Particlarly for lefties and RHFH throwers.

The gaps seem pretty tight to hit at the longer distances, and particularly the angles of the middle gaps, for negligible gain.

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Old 09-04-2018, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I think that's a first left gap hole, all he way.

Particlarly for lefties and RHFH throwers.

The gaps seem pretty tight to hit at the longer distances, and particularly the angles of the middle gaps, for negligible gain.
Agreed. As shown (i.e. with larger gaps occurring closer, smaller gaps farther out) it seems like the risk reward favors punching through to the open fairway earlier rather than later. Being farther from the tee, those smaller 12' and 8' windows must surely seem disproportionately smaller the intitial 15 ft gap.

Looks like this hole isn't intended to yield many 2's, so the "smart" way to ensure a 3 would be to hit the first gap with some fade that will carry you a little bit up the open section of fairway, then take a 2nd shot that hopefully sets you up for an easier putt.

Unless someone can throw over all of it and get what should be a very easy 3 with a real long look at a 2... and perhaps greater risk of throwing OB from the tee.
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:32 PM
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Seems like increasing the widths of the gaps as you get farther from the tee would encourage people to take those routes more for a shorter approach.

As is, and if I read David's post correctly, I'm with him. I take the short gap every time. The risk of missing the smaller gaps at a greater distance isn't worth the potential limited shortening of the approach.

Seems like the hole has nice potential as drawn up.
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:43 PM
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Wow, I did not expect that much response this quickly! I would have probably waited to get my actual picture instead of just the rough sketch I did on my break earlier. In the picture, you can see the 3 gaps on the left, and the white is the outline of the batting backstop area, the purple x is the basket (which is behind the trees way back behind), and then the gap on the right. You can see that it's not all cleared yet, particularly on the right. I was trying to nail down my final design before clearing it out. This is great as changes can easily still be made.

Thank you for your thoughts so far!

I should have pointed out that this is intended to be a legitimate 2-shot par 4 hole. Due to ceilings on the gaps, even the best players in the world would only have a really long putt at best for the eagle. However, those players would find getting the birdie likely to be yawn inducing, I think. It's really supposed to be most legitimate, again, for that intermediate player.

I guess I should specify that the way the design came about was that the original design was to tee from the same spot and put the basket out near the current left side landing zone. It's not a good hole at all in that location, in my opinion. That makes it about a 250' shot and the worst score you'd normally ever get is a 3. You'd either hit one of the gaps and be putting, or you'd hit a tree, pitch up 75', and drop in for a 3.

Alternatively, you can put it through the wood line to the right and have it finish over there. You run into the same issue though, where the only likely scores for an intermediate player barring putting errors (which don't count) is a 2 or 3.

By making it a par 4, you eliminate that by making it so that you either hit a gap and then have a legitimate 2nd shot, or you miss the gap and have to make a recovery shot that's either miraculous (and gives a chance at a birdie) or sets up an approach for par. However, if the second shot isn't legitimate, then you've just got the same issue in a par 4 version, which is of course what I'm trying to avoid.

Let me know if you all have any other comments/thoughts based on the photo. I'm an amateur player, and even more amateur course designer. Feel free to comment not just on the hole but my thought process above. I can explain in more detail, or may just flat out be wrong. (Knowing that wrong in design is subjective, but there's certainly tried and true elements that seem to work the best.)

Thanks again for the responses.
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Last edited by bbwrenn; 09-04-2018 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:47 PM
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Mark, I feel like the baseball cage is out of play more than my diagram probably suggested. Take a look at the photo and see what you think. For what it's worth, we can't move it though. On a very rare occasion, they may actually use it. (1-2x a year for a kid's camp.) In a way, it's beneficial though. It forces you to pick a side, which is what makes this distance even questionably a legitimate par 4. If you figure the average intermediate player can throw 350', and the corner gap was available, it would leave them in the NAGS zone once they got through.

Chuck, that's an interesting thought. You're thinking that by moving it closer to the woodline, you make it harder to hit the gap as you're decreasing the angle significantly? The idea of bothering to go for the gap on the right, especially if you're RHBH, is something I want - it's farther, but if you hit it and get through clean, I want the upshot to be easier.

David, Bogey, and Jim, that's what I'm most worried about. I want to reward someone for biting off extra. I think I need to push for us to increase the size of the gaps a bit down the line. There is one thing I forgot - there's a small row (about 2'x5'x8') of electrical panels in the left side fairway. It is only in play if you take the shortest gap - you can see it in the picture under the red gap. I don't feel like avoiding that alone is enough to encourage people to take the harder route, though.
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Old 09-04-2018, 03:15 PM
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Chuck's suggestion of moving the tee left and forward would significantly cut down the angle off the tee, thereby reducing the "windows" on the left. I think it would have effect would be most severe on the close 15' gap, less so on the 8' gap, with 12 ft gap falling somewhere in the middle.

I strongly suspect all that would make the 16 ft gap the more enticing t more players, as the moving the tee left really shouldn't close that window much, if at all.

If your goal is to encourage more players to hit the gaps farther down, I think that would go a long way toward accomplishing it.

Last edited by BogeyNoMore; 09-04-2018 at 03:20 PM.
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  #10  
Old 09-05-2018, 10:05 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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What's the location? An aerial photo would help.
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