#701  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:55 PM
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Noill Noill is offline
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Just drop the "innocent" part first and maybe you have something credible. Why drop it? It's an assumption and a built-in bias trap. I assume all are "innocent" whatever that means to your screenplay.
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  #702  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:23 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by Baked View Post
I’m on your side because I’d like to see this progress in a thoughtful and methodical fashion, so that results can be seen as legitimate. You are reacting as if I’m attacking you personally, which I’m not. I’m expressing a desire to have some scientific standards that can be agreed on, so this can be decided on those grounds, rather than politically. When it becomes political, you will win some short-term victories because everyone is afraid of callout culture. But then you end up with boycotts, and people calling your wins a farce, and leaders like Trump who will try to take away your rights to satisfy his bigoted supporters.

We are rushing to these arbitrary standards to be inclusive and avoid protests, and I don’t see it ending well.
The thing adopting IOC standards, is we have to assume they have looked at a lot of science and a lot of medical research. Probably more science behind that, than anywhere else in the debate. It may not be perfect, but it's the best standard we have at this time, and it makes more sense to me to adopt it, than to try to re-create it on our own. As time goes forward, it may be adjusted, and we can adjust with it.

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  #703  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:45 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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And with the IOC pretty much being at the very top of the global sports associations, and as such, one way or another, possibly have a few billion associated members by affiliation... would anyone in their right mind really assume the IOC would have simply cooked up a policy in their board room without any - or without sufficient - research done, and made it the guideline, AND then see that almost all sports associations picked up that original guideline (referred to Stockholm Consensus), and/or the 2015 update without so much of a fight for its own members?!?!

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  #704  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:25 AM
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Yes, the weightlifter (I assume you are referring to Laurel Hubbard, but there's also Janae Kroc, so please don't use "the weight lifter"), can be seen as "problematic" by the people that want to see it as problematic.

But so (ie. "problematic") is/was Climo in disc golf, with a ridiculous positive monkey factor.
Or Michael Phelps in swimming

And then his genetic anomality, he produces far less lactic acid than average humans, has not even been taken into account.
Without that anomality, his total Olympic medal count would NOT hace been 28 (all-time high in the Olympics).
23 Olympic Gold, the #2 has 9.
28 Olympic medals, the #2 (same person as above, Larisa Latynina, a gymnast from the USSR) has 18.

They produce more glaringly red flags than transgender people do, from a performance level.
In fairness, Climo and Phelps did not do it in protected divisions.
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  #705  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:50 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Fair enough. I'll give you that.
But, the whole discussion is about having a perceived unfair advantage; in this case it's being referred to as "male advantage".
Sports, is inherently, and intrinsicely, an activity where physical excellence is being rewarrded.

Climo and Phelps have an "unfair advantage" over their competitors because of certain documented physical traits that put them on the tapered end of the bell curve.
You can not police and enforce those differences,
Why then, (not you personally I think, from what I've read so far, but the general public) insisting on policing and enforcing on assumed/perceived physical traits in transgender women that supposedly puts them on the tapered end of the bell curve.
The IOC have done enough research to confidently place those transgender women with their assumed advantages well inside the normal range on that bell curve.
And if and when further research done by them will prove them wrong, I am sure they will communicate that to the world, and act accordingly in their improved guidelines.
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  #706  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:57 AM
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I can't stop.
Ftfy. Your virtue signaling is so boring.
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  #707  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:13 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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No can spell no more. Must be the hormones.
Intrinsicely = intrinsically
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  #708  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:17 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
Fair enough. I'll give you that.
But, the whole discussion is about having a perceived unfair advantage; in this case it's being referred to as "male advantage".
Sports, is inherently, and intrinsicely, an activity where physical excellence is being rewarrded.

Climo and Phelps have an "unfair advantage" over their competitors because of certain documented physical traits that put them on the tapered end of the bell curve.
You can not police and enforce those differences,
Why then, (not you personally I think, from what I've read so far, but the general public) insisting on policing and enforcing on assumed/perceived physical traits in transgender women that supposedly puts them on the tapered end of the bell curve.
The IOC have done enough research to confidently place those transgender women with their assumed advantages well inside the normal range on that bell curve.
And if and when further research done by them will prove them wrong, I am sure they will communicate that to the world, and act accordingly in their improved guidelines.
Yes, I (personally) agree with your position and the PDGA's decision.

I just think the Climo/Phelps/individual physical attributes argument is a weak one. It's conflating physical variations people are born with, with physical attributes normally lacking in a particular protected division, brought over from an unprotected division.

The better argument is yes, but those are insignificant in relation to the attributes that are not brought over. That, as I understand it, is what the IOC has concluded, the sports under the IOC and probably many others have adopted, and we've adopted as well.

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Old 10-08-2019, 08:25 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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I know full well that ANY discussion on physical differences, in ANY sport or division is ultimately a weak one.
Whether it's Climo vs mortal male disc golfers, or Phelps against human beings, of Val vs Paige, or - and that is that the discussion started about - Laura vs Kerri.


And as the critics bring on the validity of bringing up the perceived differences, allow me to bring up documented differences to retort.


I have yet to play a better ROUND (let alone a better TOURNAMENT) than an equal or higher rated woman.
That in itself proves absolutely NOTHING. I know.
But if me at my mental best (see me discussing having been broken since AmWorlds) can't even do that (see Berlin Open), am I going to be able to when I am broken?
We'll see what happens this weekend at HOFC. At least I'll have one potential benefit; I've always liked playing wooded tunnel holes; and W.R. Jackson, the one that all MPO and FPO players compete at, has 18 of them.
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  #710  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:34 AM
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shakatak shakatak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I just think the Climo/Phelps/individual physical attributes argument is a weak one. It's conflating physical variations people are born with, with physical attributes normally lacking in a particular protected division, brought over from an unprotected division.
I agree completely. I was kind of surprised that gingerandhoney has trotted out the "Phelps/etc have genetic advantages, why aren't people complaining about that?" argument a ton of times on this thread without being challenged on it until now because it is a very weak argument. Nobody wants sports to be like Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron" where everyone is exactly equal. We have decided as a society that separating males from females in (most) athletic competitions is as far as we need to go.

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