#1371  
Old 09-08-2020, 10:19 AM
jakebake91 jakebake91 is offline
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Are there examples of a truly bad putter winning a big disc golf event? If that happened fairly consistently, I'd buy that putting currently didn't matter. Most of the top pros we see are also the best putters in the world, are they not? I can see the smaller baskets punishing a really bad putter. But how many really bad putters are scoring well out on tour?
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  #1372  
Old 09-08-2020, 11:20 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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IMO the "stats" are contrived and deceiving. C1, C1x, C2 are ALL arbitrary numbers with no actual significance other than C1 being the arbitrary number assigned by the rules makers years ago at which to not allow a follow through in front of your lie.

No one on tour would tell you Cam Messerschmidt is a better long putter than Ricky, Paul, Dickerson, Jones, Conrad, or Eagle. I would imagine if you took a survey of the tour players those would be the names most often at the top- not coincidentally they are also the names most often at the top in events.

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  #1373  
Old 09-08-2020, 12:27 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Are there examples of a truly bad putter winning a big disc golf event?
Not in MPO.
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  #1374  
Old 09-08-2020, 12:38 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Dustin Johnson finished 23rd of 30 in total putting and won the PGA Championship. We need to change ball golf, it was too easy for one of the worst putters to win.
What is that stat measuring though? The amount of putts he had? Generally the person who makes the most putts or feet of putts wins on the PGA tour. It's rare to be so far ahead in ball striking to win. Though with only 30 players, that is a small field too.
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Old 09-08-2020, 12:45 PM
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F. Howl F. Howl is offline
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Originally Posted by jakebake91 View Post
Are there examples of a truly bad putter winning a big disc golf event? If that happened fairly consistently, I'd buy that putting currently didn't matter. Most of the top pros we see are also the best putters in the world, are they not? I can see the smaller baskets punishing a really bad putter. But how many really bad putters are scoring well out on tour?
I didn't actually witness his three World's, but I've heard on Jomez commentary that when Nate Doss was winning it was because he was parking everything.
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Old 09-08-2020, 12:45 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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IMO the "stats" are contrived and deceiving. C1, C1x, C2 are ALL arbitrary numbers with no actual significance other than C1 being the arbitrary number assigned by the rules makers years ago at which to not allow a follow through in front of your lie.

No one on tour would tell you Cam Messerschmidt is a better long putter than Ricky, Paul, Dickerson, Jones, Conrad, or Eagle. I would imagine if you took a survey of the tour players those would be the names most often at the top- not coincidentally they are also the names most often at the top in events.
If he is number 1 in C2? Which I am guessing he is since you are mentioning it, then he is in fact a better long putter then Ricky currently over that period. We don't get to see some of the best putters on video often. Because their long games are avg. They rarely have a chance to win or show up on video. One guy, Matt Bell managed a big win last year I believe. But great putting won't vault you to the top 5 much, you need a great long game. IDK what Matt Bells putting stats are but the couple times on video he was making everything it seemed. Just incredible.

I mentioned in a previous post that Calvin was 73% C1X after two rounds, yet he was 4th in the tournament. While I found several guys who were 100% C1X and 25 shots back. You can make every putt inside 33 feet but it doesn't matter much. Disc golf is 80% long game, 20% putting IMO.

You have to at least be good at putting to win, but you cannot win without a great week in the long game.
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Old 09-08-2020, 01:20 PM
Billyray Billyray is offline
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Originally Posted by oldmandiscer View Post
What is that stat measuring though? The amount of putts he had? Generally the person who makes the most putts or feet of putts wins on the PGA tour. It's rare to be so far ahead in ball striking to win. Though with only 30 players, that is a small field too.
Total Putting is computed using 6 putting stats Putting from 3-5', Putting from 5-10', Putting from 10-15', Putting from 15-20', Putting from 20-25' and Three Putt Avoidance from > 25'. Each statistic is given a numerical weighting based on the frequency of putts attempted from each distance. The players rank in each of the statistics used is multiplied by the corresponding weigh factor, totalled, and divided by the number of statistics used to produce the Total Putting Value. (2428)


Let's assume the 30 best golfers at the same course for 4 rounds isn't enough data. Let's go for money earned vs putting rank for the entire season. There is 193 players ranked on tour.

Of the top 10 highest money earners this year on the PGA tour, only 1 is ranked in the top 10 for putting. The leading money winner is ranked 92nd in putting.

Scoring average vs total putting?

Of the top 20 lowest scoring averages on tour, 6 are ranked 20th or better in total putting. 11 of them are top 50. Of those top 20, 6 players are ranked 92nd or worse in putting.

So even on the PGA, putting is not a major factor in the scoring difference between professionals over the long term.

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Old 09-08-2020, 01:55 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Total Putting is computed using 6 putting stats Putting from 3-5', Putting from 5-10', Putting from 10-15', Putting from 15-20', Putting from 20-25' and Three Putt Avoidance from > 25'. Each statistic is given a numerical weighting based on the frequency of putts attempted from each distance. The players rank in each of the statistics used is multiplied by the corresponding weigh factor, totalled, and divided by the number of statistics used to produce the Total Putting Value. (2428)


Let's assume the 30 best golfers at the same course for 4 rounds isn't enough data. Let's go for money earned vs putting rank for the entire season. There is 193 players ranked on tour.

Of the top 10 highest money earners this year on the PGA tour, only 1 is ranked in the top 10 for putting. The leading money winner is ranked 92nd in putting.

Scoring average vs total putting?

Of the top 20 lowest scoring averages on tour, 6 are ranked 20th or better in total putting. 11 of them are top 50. Of those top 20, 6 players are ranked 92nd or worse in putting.

So even on the PGA, putting is not a major factor in the scoring difference between professionals over the long term.
There is more to golf then long game and putting though too. Long game is important, but how well you do around the greens matters a lot too. How close can you chip, pitch and hit your bunker shots. Where as disc golf, we don't really have the same things. Upshots are generally gimme shots. 150 feet to 80 feet. Assuming little trees are in the way it's automatic to get close and make the putt. Golf, not at all guaranteed. Which again points to how tough or challenging the target is.

I think I said that ball golf is primarily short game, those shots 100 yards and in. But not saying long game isn't important. It certainly is, you need both. Putting is just one aspect of the short game. Discgolf we don't really have a short game, it's mostly irrelevant. Smaller baskets would create more importance to landing close though. Which is another benefit of a smaller target.

Generally in larger field golf events the guy who makes the most putts or gets hot with the putter wins. So for one week they are near the top in the putting statistics. These guys are all so close that whoever gets hot can win. Not much separates the top 5 guys and the 50th.
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Old 09-08-2020, 01:57 PM
Billyray Billyray is offline
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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Total Putting is computed using 6 putting stats Putting from 3-5', Putting from 5-10', Putting from 10-15', Putting from 15-20', Putting from 20-25' and Three Putt Avoidance from > 25'. Each statistic is given a numerical weighting based on the frequency of putts attempted from each distance. The players rank in each of the statistics used is multiplied by the corresponding weigh factor, totalled, and divided by the number of statistics used to produce the Total Putting Value. (2428)


Let's assume the 30 best golfers at the same course for 4 rounds isn't enough data. Let's go for money earned vs putting rank for the entire season. There is 193 players ranked on tour.

Of the top 10 highest money earners this year on the PGA tour, only 1 is ranked in the top 10 for putting. The leading money winner is ranked 92nd in putting.

Scoring average vs total putting?

Of the top 20 lowest scoring averages on tour, 6 are ranked 20th or better in total putting. 11 of them are top 50. Of those top 20, 6 players are ranked 92nd or worse in putting.

So even on the PGA, putting is not a major factor in the scoring difference between professionals over the long term.
I went deeper, let's do the Total Driving of the top 20 scoring averages.

Out of the top 20, 14 of those players are top 50 in total driving. 10 of them are in the top 25.

Of those 20, 6 of them are ranked below 50. 4 of them are ranked lower than 75th.

I'd say I've laid out a statistical case that your base comparison of the importance of putting in ball golf vs disc golf has been blown up. In both sports, length and accuracy trump putting in determining overall success over time.

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  #1380  
Old 09-08-2020, 02:29 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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I went deeper, let's do the Total Driving of the top 20 scoring averages.

Out of the top 20, 14 of those players are top 50 in total driving. 10 of them are in the top 25.

Of those 20, 6 of them are ranked below 50. 4 of them are ranked lower than 75th.

I'd say I've laid out a statistical case that your base comparison of the importance of putting in ball golf vs disc golf has been blown up. In both sports, length and accuracy trump putting in determining overall success over time.
Driving power and accuracy is a factor and your stats acknowledge that. There is probably a bigger difference in the top drivers like Dustin Johnson and McIlroy then some dude 125th in money earned.

What I am saying is that they all putt really well versus the greatest difference is created from having power off the tee. If two guys putt similar, then the guy who hits the ball the best will distance himself.

Tiger at his greatest had the power game AND he was arguably the best putter at the time. So he really was lapping the field.

The drive for show, putt for dough maybe isn't as correct as it use to be. Even if ever. Of course in golf it's so deep that you need all aspects. Disc golf is getting to that point. I'm not saying putting doesn't matter at all, of course you need to be decent at it. You're not going to be 1040 rated and not be able to make a 20 footer constantly. My point is that it isn't hard or challenging. And do that fact other aspects have changed over the last 5-10 and 20 years due to the ease of putting. Everyone just about has both sidearms and backhands. Disc technology has changed dramatically. The progress in skill has been amazing. But we are left with a baked size designed in the 70's for a park game.

The game has changed and so should the basket to keep up.
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