#2261  
Old 09-11-2020, 02:23 PM
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Hampstead Hampstead is offline
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Originally Posted by l'alcooltue View Post
i must say it's funny that people have so much faith that "COVID" is real and and a serious problem when they haven't experienced any evidence of it in real life.
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  #2262  
Old 09-11-2020, 02:43 PM
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There's plenty of groupthink to go around on both sides. People on both sides seem bent on their version, with a complete willingness to ignore any data that doesn't support their view.

Take the trajectory of infections. A novel virus released on a virgin population should grow exponentially until one of two things happen, you reach herd immunity, or there is an intervention, either medically or socially. This has been the basis of all the dire projections released early on. Yet here we are in September and things haven't exactly happened as expected. Sweden enacted minimal interventions in March and have done nothing since. Yet their cases have plateaued and plummeted. They are now one of the safest countries to be in europe. Similar trends are observable in the US. Many of the southern states dropped their lockdowns in June. Daily cases predictably began growing exponentially but then unexpectedly plateaued in July and have dropped significantly since then.

This should not happen. It goes against all of the science about the spread of a novel virus. If you don't do anything it should grow exponentially. Have we seen any explanations in any of the media or from any of the covid tsars? Absolutely not. Any reasonable explanation goes weakens the lockdown narrative. We were constantly reminded in the past of why these places were "doing it wrong", yet now when things turn out differently than expected, there is silence.

As an aside, some good news about masks:

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...nst-covid-19#1
You’re misstating things to say people “aren’t doing anything”, regardless of local rules. I live in one of the worst states with a clueless governor who eased lockdowns in May and actually threatened to sue cities that mandated masks. But most people I know didn’t rush out to bars and nightclubs, equate masks with socialism and refuse to wear them, or throw huge parties. No, thankfully most people exercise common sense, being careful to wear masks and socially distance. Most offices are still virtual where possible (my wife’s office still has no firm reopening date, and it won’t be this year). So despite all the bad press that clueless Americans get, there are plenty of us doing the right thing and limiting the spread. Conversely if you look at colleges right now, kids are being stupid and spreading it like crazy.

Your post suggests there’s something mysterious that is slowing the spread. Most likely, all the careless idiots caught it early on, and that population is largely dead/immune by now, while the rest of us aren’t getting it because we take precautions. If we all one day decided to ditch masks to gather in huge numbers, there would be a huge spike.

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Old 09-11-2020, 04:17 PM
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You’re misstating things to say people “aren’t doing anything”, regardless of local rules. I live in one of the worst states with a clueless governor who eased lockdowns in May and actually threatened to sue cities that mandated masks. But most people I know didn’t rush out to bars and nightclubs, equate masks with socialism and refuse to wear them, or throw huge parties. No, thankfully most people exercise common sense, being careful to wear masks and socially distance. Most offices are still virtual where possible (my wife’s office still has no firm reopening date, and it won’t be this year). So despite all the bad press that clueless Americans get, there are plenty of us doing the right thing and limiting the spread. Conversely if you look at colleges right now, kids are being stupid and spreading it like crazy.

Your post suggests there’s something mysterious that is slowing the spread. Most likely, all the careless idiots caught it early on, and that population is largely dead/immune by now, while the rest of us aren’t getting it because we take precautions. If we all one day decided to ditch masks to gather in huge numbers, there would be a huge spike.
That's not what I suggested. I said something is happening, and no one has bothered to provide an explanation. You provided an explanation, albeit with no data or support for either point, which is understandable because no one has bothered to provide an explanation.

It doesn't really matter which of your explanations are correct, whether it's people taking personal responsibility for their own health, whether there is some level of herd immunity, or some combination of the two. If personal responsibility works, why do we need all of these mandated shutdowns? If masks adequately prevent the spread why are the only kids getting an education where I live the ones whose parents can afford to send their kids to private school, to a facility with a hosted "classroom" with a tutor to teach their virtual classes, or those fortunate enough to have a non-working parent in the household, while all the poor working families suffer?

Quite frankly I'm just pissed. I've been in pseudo lockdown, for 6 months. If I lived in sweden I could've isolated for 6 months and could now mostly be getting back to normal. Instead I live somewhere with floundering policy makers, who seem to have no clear idea of what their strategy is, and am liking going to have to continue pseudo lockdown for the foreseeable future before it's safe for my family again.

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Old 09-11-2020, 04:42 PM
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Additionally McCready, I'm still waiting for a follow up when a month or so back I suggested the media coverage of Georgia hospitals imminently becoming overwhelmed was overblown and sensationalist, and you suggested I was off my rocker.

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Old 09-11-2020, 04:44 PM
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That's not what I suggested. I said something is happening, and no one has bothered to provide an explanation. You provided an explanation, albeit with no data or support for either point, which is understandable because no one has bothered to provide an explanation.

It doesn't really matter which of your explanations are correct, whether it's people taking personal responsibility for their own health, whether there is some level of herd immunity, or some combination of the two. If personal responsibility works, why do we need all of these mandated shutdowns? If masks adequately prevent the spread why are the only kids getting an education where I live the ones whose parents can afford to send their kids to private school, to a facility with a hosted "classroom" with a tutor to teach their virtual classes, or those fortunate enough to have a non-working parent in the household, while all the poor working families suffer?

Quite frankly I'm just pissed. I've been in pseudo lockdown, for 6 months. If I lived in sweden I could've isolated for 6 months and could now mostly be getting back to normal. Instead I live somewhere with floundering policy makers, who seem to have no clear idea of what their strategy is, and am liking going to have to continue pseudo lockdown for the foreseeable future before it's safe for my family again.
I’m curious — where are you, what are the failed policies and what effect is pseudo lockdown having on your life? Sounds like your kids go to a school that hasn’t reopened in person yet?

To me, the most glaring failed policies start at the top. The failure to secure adequate testing at the beginning (which continues today), the lack of track & trace, the anti-science & anti-mask rhetoric, and the intentional politicization of the whole issue. Maybe instead of portraying mask wearers as terrified sheep and acknowledging that masks greatly reduce the spread of the disease, we’d be in a much different place today. On the other hand, it is a deadly pandemic with no vaccine yet, so some level of disruption was inevitable.

I’m pissed & frustrated myself, that even against a common enemy like this, we continue to be as divided as ever.

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Old 09-11-2020, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by l'alcooltue View Post
i must say it's funny that people have so much faith that "COVID" is real and and a serious problem when they haven't experienced any evidence of it in real life.
How many alt account can one man create?

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Old 09-11-2020, 04:47 PM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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Some statements are so stupid they don’t warrant any response.
It's nice when they are made so you can properly categorize future contributions.
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Old 09-11-2020, 04:54 PM
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Additionally McCready, I'm still waiting for a follow up when a month or so back I suggested the media coverage of Georgia hospitals imminently becoming overwhelmed was overblown and sensationalist, and you suggested I was off my rocker.
At the time, I was reading numerous articles that hospitals were indeed overwhelmed. Those were facts being reported in real time, so I don’t see how they were overblown. Patients were being left in hallways, treatment orders were sitting unfulfilled because staff was spread thin, and hospitals were declared full but inundated with more patients anyway because nearby hospitals were likewise inundated. That has eased now, which is a good thing. I don’t see that as an indictment of them covering the story in the first place.

I’ll fully acknowledge much of the media is sensationalistic and they cherry pick stories, which is why I consume very little of it anymore. Cable news is about profits first, and social media is riddled with fake news. Both outlets thrive on outrage to drive more engagement, and in my opinion they are deeply toxic to our collective mental health. But at a time when hospitals were filling up with COVID patients and we still had people calling it all fake, I can’t fault any outlet for sounding the alarm.

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Old 09-11-2020, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by McCready View Post
I’m curious — where are you, what are the failed policies and what effect is pseudo lockdown having on your life? Sounds like your kids go to a school that hasn’t reopened in person yet?

To me, the most glaring failed policies start at the top. The failure to secure adequate testing at the beginning (which continues today), the lack of track & trace, the anti-science & anti-mask rhetoric, and the intentional politicization of the whole issue. Maybe instead of portraying mask wearers as terrified sheep and acknowledging that masks greatly reduce the spread of the disease, we’d be in a much different place today. On the other hand, it is a deadly pandemic with no vaccine yet, so some level of disruption was inevitable.

I’m pissed & frustrated myself, that even against a common enemy like this, we continue to be as divided as ever.
In my opinion there are 2 strategies that seem to have worked:

The first is the one adopted by Australia, NZ, and a number of asian nations. They instituted severe lockdowns to bring the virus down to levels where it could be closely monitored and controlled with tracing. Once they did that they were able to re-open with the caveat that any new outbreaks that pop up would be aggressively controlled and contained. Small targeted severe lockdowns might be necessary, but largely the countries could go on about their business as normal.

The other is Sweden. They decided that a lockdown was not going to work for them and would be unsustainable. They did their best to protect vulnerable populations, and left it up to the rest to make their own personal health decisions. They allowed it to work its way through those who didn't care, or those who made a personal decision about their own risks to themselves and families and decided they were acceptable. Now, at least according to their head epidemiologist, they've achieved a level of immunity where the at risk can now being getting back to normal. (Personally I accept his explanation since I've yet to see a better one)

Most of the states in the U.S. to me appear to be blundering along in the middle with no clear strategy. My particular state (Pennsylvania) adopted probably one of the more severe initial lockdowns in the nation. Which they then followed up with no clear containment strategy. It was as if they believed the NY Times article that if we locked down long enough it would just go away. Now we're in this weird pseudo semi lockdown. Businesses are limited in capacity, some places restaurants are closed, most schools are shutdown, and we still have a concerning daily case load. I mean pick a strategy and make it happen so we can all get back to our lives. About the only thing I think they got right was the mask mandate.
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Old 09-11-2020, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
In my opinion there are 2 strategies that seem to have worked:

The first is the one adopted by Australia, NZ, and a number of asian nations. They instituted severe lockdowns to bring the virus down to levels where it could be closely monitored and controlled with tracing. Once they did that they were able to re-open with the caveat that any new outbreaks that pop up would be aggressively controlled and contained. Small targeted severe lockdowns might be necessary, but largely the countries could go on about their business as normal.

The other is Sweden. They decided that a lockdown was not going to work for them and would be unsustainable. They did their best to protect vulnerable populations, and left it up to the rest to make their own personal health decisions. They allowed it to work its way through those who didn't care, or those who made a personal decision about their own risks to themselves and families and decided they were acceptable. Now, at least according to their head epidemiologist, they've achieved a level of immunity where the at risk can now being getting back to normal. (Personally I accept his explanation since I've yet to see a better one)

Most of the states in the U.S. to me appear to be blundering along in the middle with no clear strategy. My particular state (Pennsylvania) adopted probably one of the more severe initial lockdowns in the nation. Which they then followed up with no clear containment strategy. It was as if they believed the NY Times article that if we locked down long enough it would just go away. Now we're in this weird pseudo semi lockdown. Businesses are limited in capacity, some places restaurants are closed, most schools are shutdown, and we still have a concerning daily case load. I mean pick a strategy and make it happen so we can all get back to our lives. About the only thing I think they got right was the mask mandate.
Yup, we had those lockdowns which could have bought us time to ramp up testing and tracing programs. Instead the lockdowns ended and it was as if the virus would magically disappear. Testing still sucks, 6 months into this thing, which is infuriating, embarrassing and inexcusable.

I think some states have managed better than others, but the reason we’ve failed as a country starts at the top. Both because of staggering incompetence and corruption, but also as importantly, the anti-science & conspiracy rhetoric. Any state could’ve instituted the best test track & trace program possible, and half of the population wouldn’t comply, spouting nonsense about the government spying on citizens, implanting microchips or whatever crap they’re spewing this week. I read about an app you can install on your phone that will alert you if you’ve been in proximity to someone who tested positive. Imagine how effective that would be if everyone with a smartphone had that app, everyone with symptoms could get tested quickly, and everyone who received the alert immediately quarantined and got tested. In ‘Murrica?? Ain’t gonna happen. You’re trampling on muh freedums.

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