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Old 01-23-2022, 02:25 PM
FulaFirren FulaFirren is offline
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Default Whip vs Swing

As the title suggests I think that there are two different overarching styles in pro form, and I think one is far superior to the other. The easiest way is probably just to show different throws using the different techniques, but my "short" summary is this (videos after):

Whip:
There is no reachback, it's more like a backwards extension, from a bent elbow to a straight elbow. The left arm controls the whip, with the right arm going from bent, to extended to bent to extended. The rhythm is "in->out-in-out", where you start with the disc close to your body with a bent elbow ("in") then it goes "out-in-out" quickly. In my head it's "right-left-right" because I consiously extend the right arm (but only momentarily), then I completely relax it while extending the left arm and pushing the left shoulder forward. This brings the right arm into the pocket (which doesn't collapse/cause rounding because you shrug the right shoulder forward and internally rotate it). Then you fully activate the right arm for the swing/outward arc (while the left arm continues backwards "stopping" the left shoulder/pulling the handle of the whip back. This is known as the "swim move", check Drew Gibson gif below). I use the word swing for the last part of the whip because it sort of is a swing although it's only at the final part of the motion compared to what I define the "Swing technique" as.

The momentary backward extension is what Simon Lizotte describes as the "slingshot reachback" (the Anthony Barela gif below shows this clearly). Also realize that the disc will not stay on the same plane throughout the whip. You need to shrug + internally rotate your right shoulder in order to not collapse the pocket, and this will bring the disc off the plane relative to the ground, but this is irrelevant for the release angle. Look at this picture of Simon for example. He is about to throw a hyzer with barely any OAT at all, and this disc is literally 90 degrees "off plane":



Every whipper does this, although some have a less pronounced motion.

Sidenote: I also like to time the right arm backward extension by sort of moving my left hand in in front of my stomach with a bent elbow, then bringing it down and then it naturally transitions into the swim move. Jordan Castro, Drew Gibson and Paige Pierce do this as well, and Mcbeth kind of does it. Pay attention to the Drew Gibson gif below. It's like an actual breast stroke and I think it's very helpful for timing the whole thing.

Swing:
Again there is no reachback, but the arm is kept bent and the whole body coils and then swings forward. As a consequence of the bent arm the disc will come higher at peak coil, but it's not really important on its own. Basically you're getting to the same swing/outward arc point as in the whip technique, but you're losing the whip redirection of the disc that I think builds up additional lag and better momentum transfer.

Whippers:
Anthony Barela (one of the most pronounced whippers):
https://imgur.com/6cMEUSz

Jordan Castro (I actually love his backhand, insanely effortless):
https://imgur.com/d0Jtlrv

Drew Gibson:
https://imgur.com/2PZ8GU1

Other whippers:
McBeth, Eagle McMahon, Simon Lizotte, Will Schusterick, and obviously David Wiggins Jr.

Swingers :

James Conrad:
https://imgur.com/kWioTWC

Emerson Keith:
https://imgur.com/zVt7qdI

Scott Stokely (a little bit ironic as he teaches the "straight pull", which if anything more resembles the whip technique):
https://imgur.com/a/psnNPHp

I think it is a lot easier to control release direction with the whip technique, as long as you trust it. This is how you achieve truly effortless power. Yes you can make the pure swing work, but it's not effortless in the same way (look at James Conrad or Emerson Keith and compare it to Castro or Eagle in the video below). Now both require timing, and you can clearly get good distance with the swing as well. It's just not as effortless and thus harder to control imo. Also I feel like it's much harder to get a good anhyzer swing without completely shanking it over, while if you snap the whip you can just snap it on that angle. But that could just be my personal feeling and I suppose Conrad proves me wrong big time on that one.



I think just watching the Jordan Castro gif over and over watching for different things and feeling the timing of the whip, paying particular attention to his left arm action, could make it click for somone. He has a really clean effortless whip, with a left arm "swim move" like Gibson, out-in-out motion (where you can also notice how the disc gets about 90 degrees "off plane" as well). Keep in mind it's a touch shot so the initial "out" is not as aggressive/fast. Unfortunately in that particular shot he lined the whole thing up in the wrong direction..

You could also try looking at the whippers and think "right-left-right" (arm), trying to feel the rhythm.
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Last edited by FulaFirren; 01-23-2022 at 02:30 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-24-2022, 02:14 AM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Nice write up, but I'm not sure I agree with calling them "swingers". Seems to be more about "bent elbow reachback" or "coiled" vs "straight arm reachback" or "uncoiled".




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Old 01-24-2022, 02:46 AM
FulaFirren FulaFirren is offline
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Hmm I could settle with "el-loop-de-loopers" vs "coilers"

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Old 01-24-2022, 03:09 AM
FulaFirren FulaFirren is offline
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Also idk what happened with my attachment, but this is the Simon image that I was referring to:

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Old 01-24-2022, 10:13 AM
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I do like saying "coiled" vs. "uncoiled" in this context. The "swing" terminology helps to organize the other words we use a la ball golf or baseball references.

Anecdotally I've been having more success trying to find better backswing positions with a simplified pendulum/straight arm style. It's been a little easier to find the timing of the peak of the swing and relative trajectory to whip the arm through.

I've had persistent trouble getting my weightshift and footwork to sync correctly. Due to the natural feel for timing and literal elongation of the body, the straight arm style helps me emphasize the search for lag between feet/hips and upper body and works more straightforwardly within .

In the last two x-steps I do in that clip the backswing is relatively "straight," but if you look closely it is actually a sneaky/small pendulum that feels just like the much larger pendulum I use when I stand still. I wonder if pros acquire that feeling in their development intentionally or not. I'm curious how other learners are faring.

It has felt more intuitive to swing a hammer with lag with that style too.

I'd also suspect (I think SW22 pointed it out elsewhere) that starting uncoiled could provide some mechanical advantage, just like cracking a real whip, where you get acceleration from the uncoiled-dynamically coiled-uncoiled motion.
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Old 01-24-2022, 03:02 PM
navel navel is offline
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The big difference lies in where and how the shoulder lever is leveraged.

The rest of the body adjusts accordingly, or vice versa. (One example being that the throwing elbow stays bent when levering the shoulder high, as pointed out before.) The lower arm will follow gravity when relaxed and that's why a higher reach back seems to "fall down" on the swing path with the elbow bent, while a low reach back seems to be pulled up on the swing path with an extended throwing arm.


Since the lead shoulder is compressed by the trailing side when throwing that compression needs to happen on a plane.

You can exaggerate the feel by doing the following:
Low reach back / whip: Relax your arm and reach back really low. Your lower arm will naturally fall down. And the heaviness of the arm will make your lead shoulder heavier than your trail shoulder. When sitting back / shifting from behind (door frame drill) with leverage and compression between the shoulders you will feel a bit like the swing happens from underneath your trailing shoulder. Otherwise your lead shoulder would rise up up up while throwing = stalling weak satellite throw. The lead shoulder is leveraged down to stay on the plane.

High reach back / bent elbow:
Relax your arm and reach back high. Your lower arm will balance against gravity = bent elbow. This form will feel leveraged higher up above your trail shoulder. You will feel like you need to leverage the throwing arm in the opposite way since the arm is "falling down" onto the swing plane. In order to keep the lead shoulder on plane you will feel like you leverage the trailing shoulder up, lifting the lead shoulder.

I hope this makes sense. Writing this on my phone in a bit of a hurry.
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Old 01-24-2022, 05:19 PM
FulaFirren FulaFirren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
I do like saying "coiled" vs. "uncoiled" in this context. The "swing" terminology helps to organize the other words we use a la ball golf or baseball references.

Anecdotally I've been having more success trying to find better backswing positions with a simplified pendulum/straight arm style. It's been a little easier to find the timing of the peak of the swing and relative trajectory to whip the arm through.

I've had persistent trouble getting my weightshift and footwork to sync correctly. Due to the natural feel for timing and literal elongation of the body, the straight arm style helps me emphasize the search for lag between feet/hips and upper body and works more straightforwardly within .

In the last two x-steps I do in that clip the backswing is relatively "straight," but if you look closely it is actually a sneaky/small pendulum that feels just like the much larger pendulum I use when I stand still. I wonder if pros acquire that feeling in their development intentionally or not. I'm curious how other learners are faring.

It has felt more intuitive to swing a hammer with lag with that style too.

I'd also suspect (I think SW22 pointed it out elsewhere) that starting uncoiled could provide some mechanical advantage, just like cracking a real whip, where you get acceleration from the uncoiled-dynamically coiled-uncoiled motion.
Yep all this has definitely been touched upon in the past, I'm just putting it into my own words the way I make sense of it in my own throw. And you're definitely right about it being hard to find that tension with the whip technique initially. With what you're doing now you can sort of start feeling the tension way ahead of the actual swing. But you're definitely getting to that coiled tension position with tension in your lat and right side torso with the whip technique as well. They are not that different clearly, I just think one can net you some free power.

Looking like a solid swing on your side. Just make sure you're able to release flat and anhyzer without getting nose angle problems. For me the swing thought doesn't align with other angles than the hyzer angle. That might just be a mental thing.
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Old 01-24-2022, 05:30 PM
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Totally appreciate it, these exchanges get more and more useful the deeper in I go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FulaFirren View Post
Looking like a solid swing on your side. Just make sure you're able to release flat and anhyzer without getting nose angle problems. For me the swing thought doesn't align with other angles than the hyzer angle. That might just be a mental thing.
Thanks, full credit to SW22, and I still have plenty of tweaks to make. When I throw, I have been doing ok with hyzer to relatively flat with this style, but there are still some funky things happening with alignments/angles when I move far outside my natural hyzer arc. I plan to fuss a bit more to see where I land and then get a new batch up on my form critique thread.

Since we're on it, I do notice there's a big difference when I get loaded a bit lower and back (but still "uncoiled") in a "load the bow" position versus a higher/less oblique-loaded position. The lead shoulder/hip tend to get bunched/jammed a bit when the backswing is higher in this style. I don't understand why quite yet.
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Old 01-24-2022, 05:53 PM
FulaFirren FulaFirren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navel View Post
The big difference lies in where and how the shoulder lever is leveraged.

The rest of the body adjusts accordingly, or vice versa. (One example being that the throwing elbow stays bent when levering the shoulder high, as pointed out before.) The lower arm will follow gravity when relaxed and that's why a higher reach back seems to "fall down" on the swing path with the elbow bent, while a low reach back seems to be pulled up on the swing path with an extended throwing arm.


Since the lead shoulder is compressed by the trailing side when throwing that compression needs to happen on a plane.

You can exaggerate the feel by doing the following:
Low reach back / whip: Relax your arm and reach back really low. Your lower arm will naturally fall down. And the heaviness of the arm will make your lead shoulder heavier than your trail shoulder. When sitting back / shifting from behind (door frame drill) with leverage and compression between the shoulders you will feel a bit like the swing happens from underneath your trailing shoulder. Otherwise your lead shoulder would rise up up up while throwing = stalling weak satellite throw. The lead shoulder is leveraged down to stay on the plane.

High reach back / bent elbow:
Relax your arm and reach back high. Your lower arm will balance against gravity = bent elbow. This form will feel leveraged higher up above your trail shoulder. You will feel like you need to leverage the throwing arm in the opposite way since the arm is "falling down" onto the swing plane. In order to keep the lead shoulder on plane you will feel like you leverage the trailing shoulder up, lifting the lead shoulder.

I hope this makes sense. Writing this on my phone in a bit of a hurry.
Hmm I get what you're saying but I wonder if given the same release angle I would feel a difference in the way I leverage the swing part of the motion. I feel like they both end up in the same place from the pocket out. But quite clearly the mass of the lower arm is in a different place relative to your body for a portion of the throw so there could be a difference.
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Old 01-24-2022, 06:19 PM
FulaFirren FulaFirren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
Totally appreciate it, these exchanges get more and more useful the deeper in I go!



Thanks, full credit to SW22, and I still have plenty of tweaks to make. When I throw, I have been doing ok with hyzer to relatively flat with this style, but there are still some funky things happening with alignments/angles when I move far outside my natural hyzer arc. I plan to fuss a bit more to see where I land and then get a new batch up on my form critique thread.

Since we're on it, I do notice there's a big difference when I get loaded a bit lower and back (but still "uncoiled") in a "load the bow" position versus a higher/less oblique-loaded position. The lead shoulder/hip tend to get bunched/jammed a bit when the backswing is higher in this style. I don't understand why quite yet.
Yep it's a constant back and forth, trying new concepts, putting them on the shelf because they don't work, taking them back down later and all of a sudden they make sense. Sometimes things only work in conjunction with another thing, and half the time you're not even sure if you've succeeded in executing said thing, and to top that off you're not even sure it's the right thing to do. For me, the irony of it all is that I'm back on square one in terms of what I do mentally in all my throws. I literally just think about producing exactly the line (angle and direction) that I want out of my hand, and if I had to describe the motion in one word it would be "pull". And rhythm and timing and order of events is everything.

Last edited by FulaFirren; 01-24-2022 at 06:23 PM.
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