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Old 02-24-2021, 07:43 PM
Twmccoy Twmccoy is offline
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Default Roc3 vs. Lion

I put these two molds head to head out on the course today. Both are star, 180g. I usually bag a champion Roc3 167g, but I decided to use the 180g star to make a better comparison.

First off, the numbers. The Roc3 is listed at 5, 4, 0, 3. The Lion is listed at 5, 4, 0, 2. The only (marginal) difference is that the Lion has a very slightly deeper rim (1.4 cm, vs 1.3 for the Roc3.

I'm intimately familiar with the Roc3. I've bagged one for years. It's my main mid. I like it because it responds well to hard rips without turning, and will fade back reliably late in flight without being dumpy.

The Lion is new. I hadn't thrown it before.

For two discs with such similar flight numbers, I actually found a few differences. The Lion has a way more awkward feeling rim. It also has a little dome, whereas the Roc3 is flat. The rim and dome combined to give the Lion a somewhat uncomfortable hand feel. I didn't feel like I was getting super consistent releases with it. I grip locked it a couple times.

The Lion is finicky, plain and simple. I hate to say that, but it is. The disc doesn't respond very well to hard rips. It will bleed right and not come back. Even worse, when you try to power it down, the Lion will act beefy and just fade out. I had a hard time finding the Lion's "sweetspot". I felt like I was either throwing it too hard or not hard enough. The Lion won't pop up from a hyzer at all, but will flip over fairly easily if thrown hard and flat. Almost every shot I threw with the Lion ended up right (flipped) or left (because I didn't throw it hard enough and it died off early).

The Lion and I didn't get along. I don't like the hand feel, and the rim reminds me of a VRoc. The Lion is in an awkward position because it didn't fly well at full power, nor did it do well when powered down. I can appreciate a mid that will do one or the other well, but the Lion doesn't. I figure I threw the Lion at least 20 times today, and of those throws maybe 2 of them were really good/accurate.

No such problems with the Roc3. At 180g, it's heavier than the Roc3 I usually throw. I didn't notice the added weight being a problem. The Roc3 flew great, and went where I wanted it consistently. I had cleaner releases and overall much better results.

Max distance was probably 350' with both discs. The Lion might actually be slightly longer than the Roc3. A couple times I was able to get it 20' further. The Lion and Roc3 have the same speed and glide. Nothing really remarkable there.

Conclusions: The Roc3 is LIGHT YEARS better than the Lion. It's far more steerable, and works much better at varying power levels. The Lion seemed super unrefined and clunky. The Lion definitely has high speed turn, despite what the flight numbers would indicate. I didn't trust the Lion at all on full power rips.

Lion: 5, 4, -1, 3. More high speed turn and late fade than the factory numbers indicate. The Lion will dump left hard/prematurely if you don't put enough on it. It'll also turn over and stay there if you get too assertive.

Roc3: 5, 4, 0, 3. The Roc3 holds much steadier at high speed and on finesse shots. It has a better hand feel, and can be steered so much better than the Lion.

The Lion isn't the worst mid I've ever thrown. Given more time I could probably learn it well. That said, the Roc3 flew laps around it today. I'd have a hard time recommending the Lion to anyone. It doesn't do anything special, and the Roc3 kicks the crap out of it in every way.
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:09 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twmccoy View Post
I put these two molds head to head out on the course today. Both are star, 180g. I usually bag a champion Roc3 167g, but I decided to use the 180g star to make a better comparison.

First off, the numbers. The Roc3 is listed at 5, 4, 0, 3. The Lion is listed at 5, 4, 0, 2. The only (marginal) difference is that the Lion has a very slightly deeper rim (1.4 cm, vs 1.3 for the Roc3.

I'm intimately familiar with the Roc3. I've bagged one for years. It's my main mid. I like it because it responds well to hard rips without turning, and will fade back reliably late in flight without being dumpy.

The Lion is new. I hadn't thrown it before.

For two discs with such similar flight numbers, I actually found a few differences. The Lion has a way more awkward feeling rim. It also has a little dome, whereas the Roc3 is flat. The rim and dome combined to give the Lion a somewhat uncomfortable hand feel. I didn't feel like I was getting super consistent releases with it. I grip locked it a couple times.

The Lion is finicky, plain and simple. I hate to say that, but it is. The disc doesn't respond very well to hard rips. It will bleed right and not come back. Even worse, when you try to power it down, the Lion will act beefy and just fade out. I had a hard time finding the Lion's "sweetspot". I felt like I was either throwing it too hard or not hard enough. The Lion won't pop up from a hyzer at all, but will flip over fairly easily if thrown hard and flat. Almost every shot I threw with the Lion ended up right (flipped) or left (because I didn't throw it hard enough and it died off early).

The Lion and I didn't get along. I don't like the hand feel, and the rim reminds me of a VRoc. The Lion is in an awkward position because it didn't fly well at full power, nor did it do well when powered down. I can appreciate a mid that will do one or the other well, but the Lion doesn't. I figure I threw the Lion at least 20 times today, and of those throws maybe 2 of them were really good/accurate.

No such problems with the Roc3. At 180g, it's heavier than the Roc3 I usually throw. I didn't notice the added weight being a problem. The Roc3 flew great, and went where I wanted it consistently. I had cleaner releases and overall much better results.

Max distance was probably 350' with both discs. The Lion might actually be slightly longer than the Roc3. A couple times I was able to get it 20' further. The Lion and Roc3 have the same speed and glide. Nothing really remarkable there.

Conclusions: The Roc3 is LIGHT YEARS better than the Lion. It's far more steerable, and works much better at varying power levels. The Lion seemed super unrefined and clunky. The Lion definitely has high speed turn, despite what the flight numbers would indicate. I didn't trust the Lion at all on full power rips.

Lion: 5, 4, -1, 3. More high speed turn and late fade than the factory numbers indicate. The Lion will dump left hard/prematurely if you don't put enough on it. It'll also turn over and stay there if you get too assertive.

Roc3: 5, 4, 0, 3. The Roc3 holds much steadier at high speed and on finesse shots. It has a better hand feel, and can be steered so much better than the Lion.

The Lion isn't the worst mid I've ever thrown. Given more time I could probably learn it well. That said, the Roc3 flew laps around it today. I'd have a hard time recommending the Lion to anyone. It doesn't do anything special, and the Roc3 kicks the crap out of it in every way.
The Shark 3 was (oop) a much better Lion, the Shark wants to due to the Dome float more then glide and act like a putter. Shark 3 was a good Midrange that one could rip on and not have fade off the line they put it on. Happy to see I got more Champion Shark 3 to keep my discs stock going for this mold. Nothing like it except maybe a non Emac Truth, I would have tried one of the Pre Emac Truth if Dynamic Disc still made the mold.

I would assume the Champion Lion would be closer to the numbers due to more recent years of Champion being more OS then Star.
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Old 02-25-2021, 01:09 PM
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aphilso1 aphilso1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Casey 1988 View Post
...I would have tried one of the Pre Emac Truth if Dynamic Disc still made the mold...
They do still make that mold -- it's just a regular Truth. "PreMac" refers to regular Truths that were run prior to the "Made in Sweden" bottom embossing. It's a denotation of runs that came out more stable than current Truth runs. That's really no different than Teebird throwers looking for that perfect pearly 10x, or any other set of disc runs that became highly valued in the aftermarket.

In short, PreMac Truth = regular Truth mold, but with similar flight characteristics to the current Emac Truth mold.

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Old 02-25-2021, 01:13 PM
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aphilso1 aphilso1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Twmccoy View Post
The Lion has a way more awkward feeling rim. It also has a little dome, whereas the Roc3 is flat. The rim and dome combined to give the Lion a somewhat uncomfortable hand feel.
This specific part of your review amazes me. I know everyone's hands are different, but Rocs and Comets are by far the worst feeling mids to me. It makes me wonder if Lions would feel even more awkward (which is hard to fathom), or if they would be comfortable for my hand and grip due to being so different from Rocs.
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Old 02-25-2021, 03:13 PM
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Innova just released stock KC Pro Lions, would be cool to compare with Tour Series Roc3 and KC Pro Rocs. I remember picking up the DX Lion when it first released and didn't think it would fly as well as the DX Roc/Roc3. To me, the Lion looked just like the VRoc3, which was never PDGA approved with that name 5+ years back when it was released. I really didn't mind the VRoc3 in Champ (LE Euro Open) or Shimmer Star (Ice Bowl) but did find it very straight and overshot expected Mid Range landing zones when given some power vs. the Roc3s I normally throw.

Kinda funny that OP also created the VRoc Vs Roc3 Thread https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=133095

Last edited by @CD-; 02-25-2021 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 03-01-2021, 04:04 PM
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dekdo dekdo is offline
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Im glad someone mentioned the VROC, this looks exactly like the VROC3... and if thats the case..im getting one or two. The champ Vroc3 flew great.

old video of me throwing the vroc3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGoBVzCptQw
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Old 03-01-2021, 09:44 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Originally Posted by aphilso1 View Post
They do still make that mold -- it's just a regular Truth. "PreMac" refers to regular Truths that were run prior to the "Made in Sweden" bottom embossing. It's a denotation of runs that came out more stable than current Truth runs. That's really no different than Teebird throwers looking for that perfect pearly 10x, or any other set of disc runs that became highly valued in the aftermarket.

In short, PreMac Truth = regular Truth mold, but with similar flight characteristics to the current Emac Truth mold.
Not true the Truth mold was with last numbers turn 0, fade 2 exactly the same as the Shark and Shark 3. Now the Emac version of mold is fade -1 and turn 2 so a different mold in flight probably due to the plastic used now if the mold did not change is all. I thought that Eric McCabe had some influence on changing the mold to fly more like a Buzz clone when the original molds production moved to Latitude 64 factory?
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Old 03-01-2021, 09:54 PM
Twmccoy Twmccoy is offline
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Originally Posted by dekdo View Post
Im glad someone mentioned the VROC, this looks exactly like the VROC3... and if thats the case..im getting one or two. The champ Vroc3 flew great.

old video of me throwing the vroc3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGoBVzCptQw
I have a VRoc3, but I've never thrown it. The rim configuration is just.....weird. Much stranger feeling than the Roc3.

The VRoc3 and the Lion have identical feeling and looking rims.

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Old 03-02-2021, 09:39 AM
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Not true the Truth mold was with last numbers turn 0, fade 2 exactly the same as the Shark and Shark 3. Now the Emac version of mold is fade -1 and turn 2 so a different mold in flight probably due to the plastic used now if the mold did not change is all. I thought that Eric McCabe had some influence on changing the mold to fly more like a Buzz clone when the original molds production moved to Latitude 64 factory?
Casey, my man. Watch and learn.
https://youtu.be/h38CnrmxIy4
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