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Old 03-30-2016, 05:03 AM
vasco da neumi's Avatar
vasco da neumi vasco da neumi is offline
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Default double mando missed – how to continue?

we added some new holes to our private course recently. one of them has a double mando where you have to pass through 2 trees with a 25 ft gap. we wanted to establish the rule that if you have thrown too far and missed the double mando left or right you continue to play from your original lie, throw back and then (hopefully) pass the mando instead of a one-stroke-penalty and going to a dropzone. is there any official rule that supports this idea? all i could find is 804.02 stating penalty and dropzone – if there is no dz: penalty and throw from your previous lie.
our course will never ever be anything like official and is strictly private but nevertheless we want to follow pdga-rules of course. we already played some minor tournaments and two of them had a double mando with rules like continue from your lie and make it through the mando.
so do you know of any legitimate rule supporting our idea? are there any yt-videos showing "our" ruling? or do you think this is completely bs and we should install a dropzone?
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  #2  
Old 03-30-2016, 07:26 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasco da neumi View Post
we added some new holes to our private course recently. one of them has a double mando where you have to pass through 2 trees with a 25 ft gap. we wanted to establish the rule that if you have thrown too far and missed the double mando left or right you continue to play from your original lie, throw back and then (hopefully) pass the mando instead of a one-stroke-penalty and going to a dropzone. is there any official rule that supports this idea? all i could find is 804.02 stating penalty and dropzone – if there is no dz: penalty and throw from your previous lie.
our course will never ever be anything like official and is strictly private but nevertheless we want to follow pdga-rules of course. we already played some minor tournaments and two of them had a double mando with rules like continue from your lie and make it through the mando.
so do you know of any legitimate rule supporting our idea? are there any yt-videos showing "our" ruling? or do you think this is completely bs and we should install a dropzone?
"Your" rule was the rule for mandatories until 2002. If you look back at old rule books (say the 1997 version), you'll find exactly how it used to be handled.
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Old 03-30-2016, 07:37 AM
coupe coupe is offline
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If it's a private course and won't be used for sanctioned play, do whatever you want.

Quote:
if you have thrown too far and missed the double mando left or right you continue to play from your original lie, throw back and then (hopefully) pass the mando instead of a one-stroke-penalty and going to a dropzone.
Not sure what you mean by "original lie": do you mean the lie you threw from that missed the mando, or the lie established by the just-thrown disc? If the latter, that's what the rule used to be (changed in the 2002 rules revision):

Quote:
1997 Rule Book
803.11 Mandatories
B. If a disc should pass a mandatory on the incorrect side, the layer must throw the disc back past the incorrect side of the mandatory in an unwinding fashion, in order to pass to the correct side.
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:46 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Just don't call it a Mandatory, so you avoid the Mandatory rule entirely.

Just say: "On this hole, you must throw between the two trees before you complete the hole, or you get a two-throw penalty."
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Old 03-30-2016, 02:15 PM
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vasco da neumi vasco da neumi is offline
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thanks to all for your help!
i think we will follow steve west's suggestion to not call it "mando" and continue playing the oldfashioned way.
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Old 03-30-2016, 05:21 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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If you want to host a PDGA tournament there, you should use the real PDGA rules.
If you're just doing it for fun, Steve's suggestion works fine.
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Old 03-30-2016, 06:31 PM
greg_b_4 greg_b_4 is offline
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My course has a short 175' water carry hole with the basket 15 feet from the opposite edge. I've had the exact same issue come up twice in the last two league outings. A throw makes it just to the other side establishing position in bounds for sure. When we walk around we find that the disc is very questionable. In my eyes you can clearly see the natural water line making said disc OB. But there are lots of twigs and things coming from the bank in which the discs front edge is laying on making it appear to be possibly in bounds. I run the leagues and also founded the club, I also designed and built the course. My ruling was that the disc was OB but that it did make land so take a drop a meter towards the basket putting for par. But most everyone on the card (mostly newbies) thought the disc was in. So in order to not have problems I went with the majority and allowed the disc to be in bounds, giving the meter, and giving up a birdie putt. My question is which is the correct ruling for when this happens again? I still think it's OB explaining that just like if a disc is in a tree you have to mark the lay directly under, I explained if you make a mark under the twigs then its obviously OB, nobody else saw this.
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Old 03-30-2016, 06:53 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_b_4 View Post
My course has a short 175' water carry hole with the basket 15 feet from the opposite edge. I've had the exact same issue come up twice in the last two league outings. A throw makes it just to the other side establishing position in bounds for sure. When we walk around we find that the disc is very questionable. In my eyes you can clearly see the natural water line making said disc OB. But there are lots of twigs and things coming from the bank in which the discs front edge is laying on making it appear to be possibly in bounds. I run the leagues and also founded the club, I also designed and built the course. My ruling was that the disc was OB but that it did make land so take a drop a meter towards the basket putting for par. But most everyone on the card (mostly newbies) thought the disc was in. So in order to not have problems I went with the majority and allowed the disc to be in bounds, giving the meter, and giving up a birdie putt. My question is which is the correct ruling for when this happens again? I still think it's OB explaining that just like if a disc is in a tree you have to mark the lay directly under, I explained if you make a mark under the twigs then its obviously OB, nobody else saw this.
If the water's edge is intended to be the OB line, then twigs and branches hanging over the water are not extensions of the in-bounds side. Contact with those twigs and branches is not enough to consider the disc in-bounds. The disc has to be breaking the vertical plane created by the water's edge to be in. So from your description, you were dead on correct to rule the disc OB.

Perhaps a solution to the dilemma would be to install an actual line (rope or string or something) to use as the OB line rather than the water's edge. If no part of the disc is past the line and over in-bounds, the disc is OB. I feel like using natural boundaries like water's edge lends itself to people trying to work around the rule with branches and blades of grass that extend over the line into the OB area.

Further, I'd suggest establishing a drop zone for OB throws rather than using last-in-bounds. If there are branches to get caught up in like you describe, it is probably quite difficult to ascertain whether the disc actually broke the plane on the basket side of the water or not in a lot of instances...i.e. did the disc just hit the branches and stop or did it hit the bank and bounce back. With a drop zone, it wouldn't matter. If the disc is in the water and OB, you go to the drop zone, end of discussion.
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Old 03-30-2016, 08:22 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_b_4 View Post
My course has a short 175' water carry hole with the basket 15 feet from the opposite edge. I've had the exact same issue come up twice in the last two league outings. A throw makes it just to the other side establishing position in bounds for sure. When we walk around we find that the disc is very questionable. In my eyes you can clearly see the natural water line making said disc OB. But there are lots of twigs and things coming from the bank in which the discs front edge is laying on making it appear to be possibly in bounds. I run the leagues and also founded the club, I also designed and built the course. My ruling was that the disc was OB but that it did make land so take a drop a meter towards the basket putting for par. But most everyone on the card (mostly newbies) thought the disc was in. So in order to not have problems I went with the majority and allowed the disc to be in bounds, giving the meter, and giving up a birdie putt. My question is which is the correct ruling for when this happens again? I still think it's OB explaining that just like if a disc is in a tree you have to mark the lay directly under, I explained if you make a mark under the twigs then its obviously OB, nobody else saw this.

Quote:
A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area.
“Very questionable”, “appear to be possibly in bounds”, ” most everyone on the card (mostly newbies) thought the disc was in” and “I went with the majority” all indicate to me that the correct ruling was made.

I guess your OB isn’t quite as big as you thought it was.

Perhaps the problem is the word “surrounded”. If you just say “water is OB”, players are expecting the disc to be surrounded by water - or wet along all the edges.

Perhaps you should say “in or above any water”. I know that’s redundant with the rules, but it might be more clear to the players.

Quote:
The out-of-bounds line extends a plane vertically upward and downward
.
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Old 03-30-2016, 09:27 PM
greg_b_4 greg_b_4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
If the water's edge is intended to be the OB line, then twigs and branches hanging over the water are not extensions of the in-bounds side. Contact with those twigs and branches is not enough to consider the disc in-bounds. The disc has to be breaking the vertical plane created by the water's edge to be in. So from your description, you were dead on correct to rule the disc OB.

Perhaps a solution to the dilemma would be to install an actual line (rope or string or something) to use as the OB line rather than the water's edge. If no part of the disc is past the line and over in-bounds, the disc is OB. I feel like using natural boundaries like water's edge lends itself to people trying to work around the rule with branches and blades of grass that extend over the line into the OB area.

Further, I'd suggest establishing a drop zone for OB throws rather than using last-in-bounds. If there are branches to get caught up in like you describe, it is probably quite difficult to ascertain whether the disc actually broke the plane on the basket side of the water or not in a lot of instances...i.e. did the disc just hit the branches and stop or did it hit the bank and bounce back. With a drop zone, it wouldn't matter. If the disc is in the water and OB, you go to the drop zone, end of discussion.
I just realized I put this question in someone elses thread, Im really sorry. But since it's here now. The definite line is a good idea which I will probably do. As for the drop zone, I do incorporate the red tee as the drop zone if the disc never reaches land, its a very short throw from waters edge to waters edge. The reason I play the meter of where it went in is its a bit of a walk around the water so to save time it makes sense.
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