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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
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  #3801  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:39 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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An article in the WSJ about the effect of chanring the par on a hole here.

Key paragraph:

Quote:
In a study of U.S. Open scoring data at two holes where par was changed from 5 to 4 without other substantial modifications—No. 2 at Pebble Beach and No. 9 at Oakmont—Elmore and Urbaczewski found that players approach the holes more aggressively and score notably better when the holes are labeled par 4s.
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  #3802  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:26 AM
Whirlwind Disc Golf Whirlwind Disc Golf is offline
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I've seen similar, to a lesser degree. The aggressiveness doesn't necessarily result in better average score, because the number of major mistakes also goes up, but it does increase the percent of lower scores.
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  #3803  
Old 06-19-2019, 12:58 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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The 37th Annual Kansas City Wide Open Presented by Discraft 2019



"All holes are par 3" works for Water Works.

For WyCo, the pars were graciously set exactly as appropriate for FPO.

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  #3804  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
For WyCo, the pars were graciously set exactly as appropriate for FPO.
Heh. As I watched video of MPO rounds at WyCo (the county is called "The 'Dotte", round here), I was surprised at the listed par for some holes. Shoot, my rounds out there could be under par if I used those ratings!
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  #3805  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:27 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
An article in the WSJ about the effect of chanring the par on a hole here.

Key paragraph:
It's an interesting concept, but I wouldn't put too much stock into that study.

First they found a pretty minimal difference, between 0.01 and 0.22 strokes. Second their controls are pretty limited. They make the assumption that setup difficulty is equivalent between par 5s and par 5s converted to par 4s. Anyone who watches golf, and particularly the US Open would be aware that this isn't the case. The USGA typically stretches difficulty on the US Open course to such a degree (and particularly on long par 4s), that they will have to make adjustments just based off the weather and direction of wind for a particular day, or certain holes would become essentially unplayable. Just as an example if you had the same hole labeled as a par 4 and par 5, and conditions were difficult, they would make an adjustment to pin location and teeing area if it was labelled as par 4, but would make no changes if it was labeled a par 5 and be pleased that it would essentially play as a true par 5. This could easily explain the small difference they found. Finally, I always think something is fishy when I see a statement like this: "We restrict our attention to par 5s given that the affect of technology on these holes, and the overall play, is likely to be more similar across the common set rather than across par 3s and par 4s", without any support as to why they believe this is the case. It sounds to me like what they are really saying is: "We didn't find statistical significance when comparing across all holes so we found a dataset that worked."

Furthermore anecdotally, just from my watching of golf, I would say that professional golfers are just as likely to layup on a par 4 off a bad tee shot, as they are on a par 5. They seem to understand that saving a stroke by hitting the smart shot, instead of a low percentage hero shot, is the right play whether it's the difference between a par and a bogie on a 5, or a bogie and double bogie on a 4. This might not be the case for less accomplished players, but part of what makes the top guys the top guys, is that they make the correct decisions (or have a good caddy that talks them out of doing something stupid).

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  #3806  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:42 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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DGPT - Discraft Ledgestone Insurance Open 2019, Sunset, 7,045 ft, FPO





I’m not surprised that #6 and #14 were over-parred. There is temptation to assign higher pars to holes just because they are a little longer than other holes of the same par.

While par of 60 would have been good for 850-rated players (and thus below the skill level of FPO), hole #6 would still not be a par 5 for that skill level. (Hole #14 would be par 4 at 850, and hole #3 would become a par 4 to get total par to 60.)
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  #3807  
Old 06-24-2019, 12:09 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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DGPT - Discraft Ledgestone Insurance Open 2019, Lake Eureka, 9,647 ft, MPO



Hole #1 was showing signs of becoming a par 3 last year. It looks like it's there now. I guess everyone has figured it out. I wonder if players would take more risk if it was par 3.

Hole #11 seems determined to be just about the longest par 2 in the world. Maybe the few trees by the tee and OB boundary help to channel the player's throws.

(As a reminder, these are based on the play of the prototypical 1000-rated player, so strength of field should not come into play.)

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  #3808  
Old 06-29-2019, 08:39 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Dynamic Discs Tyyni sponsored by Latitude 64, 2019

I must commend the excellent job of setting pars for the FPO field.

Maybe someday MPO will be worthy of the same effort.

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  #3809  
Old 07-01-2019, 06:33 PM
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I think the best way to set par is to have Paul McBeth play the course and then add one to his score on every hole.

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  #3810  
Old 07-01-2019, 09:40 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
I think the best way to set par is to have Paul McBeth play the course and then add one to his score on every hole.
While that system has some flaws, it wouldn’t be much worse than whatever a lot of TDs do.



At Discraft's CCR Open 2019, course par for MPO was appropriate for 850-rated (Beginner) players. Interestingly, course par for FPO was actually tougher, just shy of being appropriate for 900-rated (Intermediate) players. Both pars, of course, are too high.
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