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View Poll Results: Which do you prefer?
Raised baskets and artificial OB/ropes 17 17.71%
Standard height and natural rough 79 82.29%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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  #191  
Old 09-23-2020, 11:27 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
The true test will be the comments AFTER the tournament. Baskets on a mound are not raised baskets per the arguments on this thread. They are using natural terrain for elevation, even if the mounds were created artificially.

As to your many flavors of OB, how many of these are not part of the natural course and are instead ropes or painted lines? painted lines designating a course boundary do not count as artificial BTW. And is this different than the course was originally designed?

Hanging baskets? I throw my putts as hard as i can so my card mates can have a hanging, swinging basket. Not really fair in my book, but if you are going to put those out there, fairness isn't high on the list to start with.

People are hungry for events.
Well, this is the test. This tournament has become insanely popular over the years. We scheduled in against an A-tier this year, thinking that and Covid might reduce demand, but it's only worse.

As for the flavors....we have a pond and creeks, and "creeks and beyond", and a gravel driveway (and beyond), and a 10' deep pit flagged and marked OB (though it's not dangerous and could be played out of), and an island created from a railroad-tie border, and a 400' long line of flags in an open area.

All of which exist year-round, and none of which seems to discourage players, in their attendance or their reviews. Oh, I'm sure some people don't care for it. But I have my doubts it's a "vast majority". (However, I disclaimed that his is anecdotal, not data, so perhaps it's a very exuberant small minority who likes it).
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  #192  
Old 09-23-2020, 12:28 PM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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I'm coming to this thread new, has anyone so far defined what a "gimmick" is. I'd define it as a feature not born of a legitimate design decision. I can think of two examples, one gimmick and one not IMO.

The first is a hanging basket at a course in Lafayette, Louisiana. Great effort (and possibly expense) put this hanging basket in approximately the same position that it would have been in had the installer just mounted in on it's pole. It is hanging from four timbers using chain. The very next hole has a puny, undersized tee box that looks as if it was a repurposing of a small slab that pre-existed the course. Every time I play this hole I think about the though process that must have been used in putting up the hanging basket but doing nothing about the tiny tee pad on the very next hole.

The second example is an elevated basket at Ford Park in Shreveport, Louisiana. It is elevated on a tower of bricks. This short hole has a small rise about midway down the fairway and then has a downhill section leading to the basket. When standing on the tee box, the basket tower holds the basket so that the player sees it as if the downhill portion of the fairway wasn't there, i.e., it gives the illusion of a fairly level fairway. It's an ingenious design feature that I have never considered to be a gimmick at all.

  #193  
Old 09-23-2020, 01:02 PM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Well, this is the test. This tournament has become insanely popular over the years. We scheduled in against an A-tier this year, thinking that and Covid might reduce demand, but it's only worse.

As for the flavors....we have a pond and creeks, and "creeks and beyond", and a gravel driveway (and beyond), and a 10' deep pit flagged and marked OB (though it's not dangerous and could be played out of), and an island created from a railroad-tie border, and a 400' long line of flags in an open area.

All of which exist year-round, and none of which seems to discourage players, in their attendance or their reviews. Oh, I'm sure some people don't care for it. But I have my doubts it's a "vast majority". (However, I disclaimed that his is anecdotal, not data, so perhaps it's a very exuberant small minority who likes it).
It doesn't sound as over the top as you describe it. Creeks and ponds are natural hazards/boundaries. If the island was part of the original design, I am even ok with that, unless it puts short throwers at a large disadvantage. the in course hazards are not terrible and I much prefer them over the artificial OB. . I am not a fan of the 400' line unless crossing that line puts you at an advantage in playing the hole, which in that case I would prefer some type of mando instead of OB. If you have the land, let the players use it.

The artificial OB i have the biggest issue with, is those put up against what is already a natural boundary (woods, high grass, etc.). Players should have a chance to escape the trouble they threw into in those cases. They can always choose to take a drop.

Rules also should be adapted to discern between OB and hazards. OB should always result in the shot being re-thrown with a penalty, while hazards allow the disc to be placed where it last crossed the hazard line. The failure of the rules to discern OB from a hazard is really the root cause of many of these issues in my opinion.

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  #194  
Old 09-23-2020, 01:14 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
The failure of the rules to discern OB from a hazard is really the root cause of many of these issues in my opinion.
I'm not clear on what you mean by that statement as the rules ARE clear.

806.02 Out-of-Bounds rule
806.05 Hazard rule

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  #195  
Old 09-23-2020, 01:22 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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Just mark tall weeds or whatever as hazards. You find your disc you have the option to play it (without penalty), you don't find it you play where it last crossed into the weeds/brush/woods. It is a simple solution. I understand that they want to speed up play for some of these areas, but if the group and TD reminds people to keep to the time limit then take your drop. Go find your disc after the round if you need to.

More annoyingly to me is roping off tons of regular grass. Just make the basket smaller and get rid of the dumb ropes. You land further away, you got a tougher putt. Not drop 10 feet from the raised basket and tap it in (like many of these locations). It's just so weird to throw it one area and now move to another area like a drop zone as well. The rules with all these OB spots is ridiculous. You can even move up or 60 feet back sometimes. It isn't equitable to where/how you threw the shot. Nor is the shot penalty with the roped off area. OK whatever. Rant off.
  #196  
Old 09-23-2020, 01:25 PM
l'alcooltue l'alcooltue is offline
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Originally Posted by oldmandiscer View Post
You land further away, you got a tougher putt. Not drop 10 feet from the raised basket and tap it in (like many of these locations).
LOL and they take their one-two-three steps in from the "ob" line, making it a 7 foot tap in!

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  #197  
Old 09-23-2020, 01:27 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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LOL and they take their one-two-three steps in from the "ob" line, making it a 7 foot tap in!
I know it's illogical. I can see grass there. Your disc is 60 feet away. Now you move up next to the basket and tap it in? What do I know?

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  #198  
Old 09-23-2020, 01:52 PM
1978 1978 is offline
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Originally Posted by ILUVSMGS18 View Post
I'm a big opponent of unnatural OB, raised baskets (1 per course is ok, but still not great, any more and it's too many) and mandos. Mandos and OB for safety reasons are fine with me, but putting a mando or OB in, just to make the hole harder is bad.

Hole 3 on Fox Run is a great example of too much OB, ditch the OB behind the pin, and force scrambles from errant drives/upshots instead of either a pitch and putt for 4/5 or a saveable 3/4. Its wooded enough behind that basket that not too many would be open looks.
Mando's for safety is by far the worst reason to do anything unnatural to the course. If a mando is needed for the safety of the course, players, or other park users, the course would be better suited as a 17 hole course. Almost no mando's (unless you use a fence) prevent a player from mis throwing or stop players that dont care about mando's or dont know what they mean from throwing the troubled route. In my experience, a mando often goads some players into attempting the banned shot to see how much better it works.

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  #199  
Old 09-23-2020, 01:54 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
It doesn't sound as over the top as you describe it. Creeks and ponds are natural hazards/boundaries. If the island was part of the original design, I am even ok with that, unless it puts short throwers at a large disadvantage. the in course hazards are not terrible and I much prefer them over the artificial OB. . I am not a fan of the 400' line unless crossing that line puts you at an advantage in playing the hole, which in that case I would prefer some type of mando instead of OB. If you have the land, let the players use it.

The artificial OB i have the biggest issue with, is those put up against what is already a natural boundary (woods, high grass, etc.). Players should have a chance to escape the trouble they threw into in those cases. They can always choose to take a drop.

Rules also should be adapted to discern between OB and hazards. OB should always result in the shot being re-thrown with a penalty, while hazards allow the disc to be placed where it last crossed the hazard line. The failure of the rules to discern OB from a hazard is really the root cause of many of these issues in my opinion.
As the first part, yes, it's all part of the course design -- though it fits the OP's definition of "artificial". (The 400' line marks where there was originally a jeep road that we used as OB; the road grassed in, we kept the OB. runs from the tee to about 30' left of the basket on a 300' downhill throw, so constrains the free runs at the basket; the closer you try to get to the basket, the greater risk that a poor throw ends up OB.)

For the bolded part, I agree. I don't understand marking off woods; two fun things are seeing great save shots out of the woods, and seeing attempts at great save shots go wrong and end up in worse trouble.

I generally agree with the sentiment that when a TD tricks up a local course for a tournament, I find it a letdown. It's not exactly the course I came to play.

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  #200  
Old 09-23-2020, 02:01 PM
1978 1978 is offline
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Originally Posted by oldmandiscer View Post
Were doing gimmicks right? Why are your gimmicks legitimate but mine are not?
Depends on the definition of gimmick. Artificial obstacles or ob mimic things you might find in nature. Like building a mock stonehenge around a basket in the middle of an open park mimics trees and raised baskets mimic hilly terrain on flat courses. Kicking a disc does not mimic anything in the game and also doesn't have anything to do with the course or tournament layout/design which is what the thread is about.

To me a gimmick is a basket that moves like on a motor, utilizing equipment to change flight like a trampoline on a fairway corner, rotating obstacles like a basket behind a windmill, or baskets that have moveable guards to change where a disc is allowed to enter the basket.

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