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Old 07-05-2022, 10:05 PM
Dundee Dundee is offline
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Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
***note that this is part of where people get tangled up in maintaining a 90 degree upper arm angle relative to the upper body. As SW22 tirelessly points out, the arm angle will pass through 90 degrees but the exact angles will vary by player and often be much larger than that.
I think we're moving back to the crush the can drill to develop a brace so that I can find the "hit point", as sounds like I can't have a "hit point" without the brace. I don't think I've ever felt the brace. If I don't have a brace, the elbow position is irrelevant, correct? It all comes as a result of the brace?

I may be worrying about the wrong things, but I'm not sure where I should be feeling pressure in the throw/hammer swing. I watched that golf video in SW22's most recent comment. I'm having trouble transferring that to disc golf. It's completely the opposite for disc golf, right? I've never played golf, so this "weight vs pressure transfer" is completely foreign to me.

Another thing I'm unsure about is whether I'm suppose to be literally pushing off my back foot onto my front foot? Is that the main component of the pressure/weight transfer? I don't do this at all, if you couldn't tell. Should I be thinking about the "reachback" as rotating my upper body, keeping my weight on my back foot, while moving towards the target? If so, how do you accomplish that? I really struggle with keeping my weight back while moving in the opposite direction.

These questions may be missing the point completely. No idea.
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  #32  
Old 07-05-2022, 10:34 PM
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Note how the top of backswing your arm has slack and your center of mass is close to hammer.
Note how the top of backswing my center of mass has driven forward to catapult the lagging shoulder/arm/disc/hammer.
Note how you extend the elbow instead of bending it to swing forward while lagging the release of the hammer head.



The Hit - where the wrist extends and hammer head/nose of disc passes your hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=2m33s
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=132910
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File Type: jpg hammer toss catapult copy.jpg (61.6 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg wall hit hammer.jpg (58.0 KB, 63 views)
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  #33  
Old 07-06-2022, 09:50 AM
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I got interested in your case and as a resident cheerleader I went back through your thread. I just wanted to summarize my "what I would have told myself 6 months ago/if only I had listened better" advice to you. See what you think.

1. Lots of people get trapped in the 300-400' range. Athletic/young people with advantages seem more likely to get into the low 400s but still typically have some fundamental issues in that range. Depending on your background, this stuff can be hard work and experimenting/trying more than one way of learning can be important. I've felt like giving up a couple times, and I'm glad that I didn't either time. I have needed to chang how I practice several times to make breakthroughs. The right mix of slowing down & drilling vs. throwing is hard to predict on a case-by-case basis.

2. Posture, posture, posture. Posture facilitates learning and using good mechanics. Expect cycles of posture adjustments and mechanics adjustments. We've seen people here throwing in the mid 400's+ with good-looking sequences who still need posture tips.

3. Effort and how hard/far to throw. I do think that it is possible to throw too soft. The reason is that there are lots of ways to get to 200', less but still many ways to get to 300', fewer but still several to 400', and so on (moderated by athleticism, body type, etc.). And you're here because you want to develop that high-level, athletic throw. I currently like advising at least 2 days (maybe more like 3 if your body isn't used to throwing far) between field sessions. Cap it at some number of throws. Whatever my form is, I seem to get the most out of warming up with some upshots with my current form, and then throwing at 80-85% effort. That's enough that my body needs to find some oomph, but not so hard that I'm totally out of control/hurting myself while still addressing some deep form issues and getting a decent number of reps in. I think working at or near max-effort is more productive (and safer) once you have most of the fundamentals on board. The nature of the effort changes drastically as you develop - when we talk about an "effortless" throw, the body is still doing a lot of work. It's just that it's getting better and better spread through the sequence and feels less and less difficult throughout the swing. The better the form is, the more "athletic" that effortless motion becomes. Which gets me to...

4. "Hard on the back"/"hard on<insert body part here>": Things can feel ok until they give out. You look younger, lighter, quicker, and more flexible than me, so I bet your body can take more than mine before it starts to send warning signals. The spine/chicken wing stuff SW22 calls out above can catch up with you eventually if it's not addressed if you keep playing for a while.

5. Throwing slower discs: my dude, what you've heard is true - throwing neutral-ish slower discs farther with control is the gateway to long term progress. You can always "slot in" other discs while learning, but you want that angle and nose control for every disc, and slow neutral discs are more "honest". Aside from impressing your friends, getting to a 330'+ hole with a mid will typically be less error prone than with a driver. You will also get smarter about disc choices when you have your set of 'stock' shots with neutral, highly controllable discs.

6. Slow down and fix a piece at a time:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee View Post
I think I need to slow down and address each part of this comment
Simon agrees with you. Practically speaking, this is a nice function of breaks between throwing - do a bit of posture/slow drilling then hit the field again and see what you get. I have a "rule of 2" now - before I go throw, I plan one fix, and if and only if that works very quickly do I move onto a second now. I'd say "rule of 1" is much smarter when you are first getting serious about form work. I actually think it can be healthy to self-analyze because understanding how form works is beneficial in the long run. But when learning to throw, always bite off a little at a time and listen closely to feedback so you don't get too tangled up.

7. Breaking through on your biggest struggles (or "I'm confused, and I don't know what to do or how to do it"):

Exhibit A
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee View Post
I still think my biggest struggle is the weight transfer. I don't know why this has been so hard to fix. It never feels very powerful, and I can't really tell if I'm making any improvements on it. I've stopped completely thinking about distance when it comes to form work, which I think was derailing progress.
Exhibit B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee View Post
I may be worrying about the wrong things, but I'm not sure where I should be feeling pressure in the throw/hammer swing. I watched that golf video in SW22's most recent comment. I'm having trouble transferring that to disc golf. It's completely the opposite for disc golf, right? I've never played golf, so this "weight vs pressure transfer" is completely foreign to me.

Another thing I'm unsure about is whether I'm suppose to be literally pushing off my back foot onto my front foot? Is that the main component of the pressure/weight transfer? I don't do this at all, if you couldn't tell. Should I be thinking about the "reachback" as rotating my upper body, keeping my weight on my back foot, while moving towards the target? If so, how do you accomplish that? I really struggle with keeping my weight back while moving in the opposite direction.

These questions may be missing the point completely. No idea.
You often can have good hunches and IMO it's healthy to reason about them. But remember that sometimes things will be confusing to your brain or your body (or both) until something else clicks. Our brains and bodies are powerful because they don't learn linearly even though we often want them to as analytic adults. And our bodies and brains don't always talk well to one another, especially when we're learning something new as adults. Leading me to:

8. Let a good coach "judo" you into good form despite yourself. I'm speculating a bit here, but remember that SW22 has been doing this for a long time. He has IMHO a unique, hard-earned gift for ferreting out cause and effect and getting people to try little experiments. I have a hunch that he's focused on your upper body and swing path right now because if you get that sorted, we might find out that your lower body action starts to improve as a result without further thinking. Or maybe that will need more work afterward: we'll see. If you've got his input in particular I really believe it's worth trying to soldier on- consume the content, but also try to get one thing sorted out, then move onto the next. Sometimes you and your coach need to try experiments to get stuff to click. Sometimes an old problem will pop up again when you try to fix the new thing. SW22 always "judos" me into a better place when I get stuck. Patience is key in the swing and in the practice.

You can get there.

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  #34  
Old 07-06-2022, 08:20 PM
Dundee Dundee is offline
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Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
I got interested in your case and as a resident cheerleader I went back through your thread. I just wanted to summarize my "what I would have told myself 6 months ago/if only I had listened better" advice to you. See what you think.

1. Lots of people get trapped in the 300-400' range. Athletic/young people with advantages seem more likely to get into the low 400s but still typically have some fundamental issues in that range. Depending on your background, this stuff can be hard work and experimenting/trying more than one way of learning can be important. I've felt like giving up a couple times, and I'm glad that I didn't either time. I have needed to chang how I practice several times to make breakthroughs. The right mix of slowing down & drilling vs. throwing is hard to predict on a case-by-case basis.

2. Posture, posture, posture. Posture facilitates learning and using good mechanics. Expect cycles of posture adjustments and mechanics adjustments. We've seen people here throwing in the mid 400's+ with good-looking sequences who still need posture tips.

3. Effort and how hard/far to throw. I do think that it is possible to throw too soft. The reason is that there are lots of ways to get to 200', less but still many ways to get to 300', fewer but still several to 400', and so on (moderated by athleticism, body type, etc.). And you're here because you want to develop that high-level, athletic throw. I currently like advising at least 2 days (maybe more like 3 if your body isn't used to throwing far) between field sessions. Cap it at some number of throws. Whatever my form is, I seem to get the most out of warming up with some upshots with my current form, and then throwing at 80-85% effort. That's enough that my body needs to find some oomph, but not so hard that I'm totally out of control/hurting myself while still addressing some deep form issues and getting a decent number of reps in. I think working at or near max-effort is more productive (and safer) once you have most of the fundamentals on board. The nature of the effort changes drastically as you develop - when we talk about an "effortless" throw, the body is still doing a lot of work. It's just that it's getting better and better spread through the sequence and feels less and less difficult throughout the swing. The better the form is, the more "athletic" that effortless motion becomes. Which gets me to...

4. "Hard on the back"/"hard on<insert body part here>": Things can feel ok until they give out. You look younger, lighter, quicker, and more flexible than me, so I bet your body can take more than mine before it starts to send warning signals. The spine/chicken wing stuff SW22 calls out above can catch up with you eventually if it's not addressed if you keep playing for a while.

5. Throwing slower discs: my dude, what you've heard is true - throwing neutral-ish slower discs farther with control is the gateway to long term progress. You can always "slot in" other discs while learning, but you want that angle and nose control for every disc, and slow neutral discs are more "honest". Aside from impressing your friends, getting to a 330'+ hole with a mid will typically be less error prone than with a driver. You will also get smarter about disc choices when you have your set of 'stock' shots with neutral, highly controllable discs.

6. Slow down and fix a piece at a time:


Simon agrees with you. Practically speaking, this is a nice function of breaks between throwing - do a bit of posture/slow drilling then hit the field again and see what you get. I have a "rule of 2" now - before I go throw, I plan one fix, and if and only if that works very quickly do I move onto a second now. I'd say "rule of 1" is much smarter when you are first getting serious about form work. I actually think it can be healthy to self-analyze because understanding how form works is beneficial in the long run. But when learning to throw, always bite off a little at a time and listen closely to feedback so you don't get too tangled up.

7. Breaking through on your biggest struggles (or "I'm confused, and I don't know what to do or how to do it"):

Exhibit A


Exhibit B


You often can have good hunches and IMO it's healthy to reason about them. But remember that sometimes things will be confusing to your brain or your body (or both) until something else clicks. Our brains and bodies are powerful because they don't learn linearly even though we often want them to as analytic adults. And our bodies and brains don't always talk well to one another, especially when we're learning something new as adults. Leading me to:

8. Let a good coach "judo" you into good form despite yourself. I'm speculating a bit here, but remember that SW22 has been doing this for a long time. He has IMHO a unique, hard-earned gift for ferreting out cause and effect and getting people to try little experiments. I have a hunch that he's focused on your upper body and swing path right now because if you get that sorted, we might find out that your lower body action starts to improve as a result without further thinking. Or maybe that will need more work afterward: we'll see. If you've got his input in particular I really believe it's worth trying to soldier on- consume the content, but also try to get one thing sorted out, then move onto the next. Sometimes you and your coach need to try experiments to get stuff to click. Sometimes an old problem will pop up again when you try to fix the new thing. SW22 always "judos" me into a better place when I get stuck. Patience is key in the swing and in the practice.

You can get there.
I appreciate the support. I feel like you guys may be thinking that I'm not really paying attention to the advice I'm being given, not watching the videos, or trying to put in the work. I am grateful for the tips and I am trying to implement them. I just struggle with connecting the dots between my own form and the videos I watch. For example, I still can't figure out how to alter my posture. I get that I'm overextending my back based on comparison with pros, but I physically do not know how to not do that. I think my lack of control over how my body moves through the throw is becoming a big issue.

Edit: The last sentence kind of reads as an excuse. I don't mean that. Just using something as an example.

I have definitely felt discouraged in the last few months (the fact I can't crush the can still frustrates me), but I don't think I have the heart to quit. This has become my main hobby. Not even so much playing as trying to fix my form. My ratio of fieldwork to playing is like 10:1. I agree with most things you said here. I've altered my practice some by shortening the sessions as I wasn't learning anything past an hour, I gave up the wraiths, I've quit thinking about success in feet, etc.

Your last bullet makes me think I've been coming across as being hard to coach. I apologize for that, as it's not my intent.

I'll be back with some hammer swing work later today or tomorrow, while implementing what y'all have said.

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  #35  
Old 07-06-2022, 09:44 PM
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Brychanus Brychanus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee View Post
I appreciate the support. I feel like you guys may be thinking that I'm not really paying attention to the advice I'm being given, not watching the videos, or trying to put in the work. I am grateful for the tips and I am trying to implement them. I just struggle with connecting the dots between my own form and the videos I watch. For example, I still can't figure out how to alter my posture. I get that I'm overextending my back based on comparison with pros, but I physically do not know how to not do that. I think my lack of control over how my body moves through the throw is becoming a big issue.

Edit: The last sentence kind of reads as an excuse. I don't mean that. Just using something as an example.

I have definitely felt discouraged in the last few months (the fact I can't crush the can still frustrates me), but I don't think I have the heart to quit. This has become my main hobby. Not even so much playing as trying to fix my form. My ratio of fieldwork to playing is like 10:1. I agree with most things you said here. I've altered my practice some by shortening the sessions as I wasn't learning anything past an hour, I gave up the wraiths, I've quit thinking about success in feet, etc.

Your last bullet makes me think I've been coming across as being hard to coach. I apologize for that, as it's not my intent.

I'll be back with some hammer swing work later today or tomorrow, while implementing what y'all have said.
No doubt in my case. I've struggled with many similar issues so this is mostly a point of empathy :-) I don't think you're hard to coach, I just think this stuff can be hard in general.

Posture's tough and sometimes it comes and goes and other times it breaks through in spades. Mixing it up and focusing on something else for a bit can help at times, so let's see how the prior tips above go.

Re: crushing the can- each drill gives you isolated bits and pieces but getting them all to work together is tough and takes time. If doing it directly is stubborn, trying something else might make it happen more easily afterward!
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  #36  
Old 07-08-2022, 12:51 AM
Dundee Dundee is offline
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Note how the top of backswing your arm has slack and your center of mass is close to hammer.
Note how the top of backswing my center of mass has driven forward to catapult the lagging shoulder/arm/disc/hammer.
Note how you extend the elbow instead of bending it to swing forward while lagging the release of the hammer head.



The Hit - where the wrist extends and hammer head/nose of disc passes your hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=2m33s
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=132910
I think I am able to repeat your first two notes. Videos below. One I consciously tried to put my rear arm into the throw instead of letting it hang back. The other was what I would more normally do, not think about the rear arm at all.

Hanging rear arm: https://youtu.be/3ybBKB06DYA
Tucking rear arm in: https://youtu.be/FAFk0UFNcNo

Does this look right regarding where my center of mass is at the top of the backswing and how my elbow extends?

I took a screenshot of my body posture in the backswing and where I think the power pocket is. My head is tilted in the backswing, whereas yours is pretty vertical. In the power pocket, my body is slanted away from the target, whereas yours is pretty vertical. I'm not trying to get ahead of myself, just something I noticed.
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File Type: jpg Tilted Body Posture.jpg (20.5 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Tilted Head.jpg (22.3 KB, 7 views)
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  #37  
Old 07-08-2022, 01:46 AM
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1. Slow down. I can't believe you aren't throwing the hammer through the wall. Looks like there is a lot of effort going on in your swing. It should be fairly effortless, even on slow effortless swings I've had the hammer fly out my hand accidentally as the whip pulls it.

2. Backswing with a hammer. Swing the hammer forward before starting backswing and pendulum the hammer back vertically. I do not recommend starting from power pocket and unhinging into horizontal backswing - this is very unnatural motion to a heavy swing - also...

3. Lag the hammer head straight back behind handle/wrist. You are curling the hammer head around the handle and trying to spin it way too much, instead of leveraging it like hammer or stick and letting it spin centrifugally.

4. Rear arm. Hold a beverage and don't spill it.





Last edited by sidewinder22; 07-08-2022 at 01:50 AM.
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  #38  
Old 07-08-2022, 10:00 AM
bryantlikes bryantlikes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee View Post
I have definitely felt discouraged in the last few months (the fact I can't crush the can still frustrates me), but I don't think I have the heart to quit.
I really struggled with crushing the can until SW22 gave me some simple advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Thought maybe this would help you as well.

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  #39  
Old 07-08-2022, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post

2. Posture, posture, posture. Posture facilitates learning and using good mechanics. Expect cycles of posture adjustments and mechanics adjustments. We've seen people here throwing in the mid 400's+ with good-looking sequences who still need posture tips.


5. Throwing slower discs: my dude, what you've heard is true - throwing neutral-ish slower discs farther with control is the gateway to long term progress. You can always "slot in" other discs while learning, but you want that angle and nose control for every disc, and slow neutral discs are more "honest". Aside from impressing your friends, getting to a 330'+ hole with a mid will typically be less error prone than with a driver. You will also get smarter about disc choices when you have your set of 'stock' shots with neutral, highly controllable discs.
Responding to these two points:

1. Agree. I'm a prime example of someone who, by non-pro standards, throws "far", and I have a good bit left to improve in my form.

2. I don't always agree with only throwing slower discs. There is a big difference in throwing feel and flight characteristics between a mid-range and a fairway driver due to the rim differences (going from 5 to 7 speed is a large change in feel and flight), as well as a necessary difference in throwing height.

My opinion: If you want distance, you need to learn to control nose and release angles of drivers, and throwing only mid-ranges doesn't help with that. I think you should be throwing discs that, when released with a bit of hyzer, flip up and drift right a bit before coming back. At your arm speed (350'-ish), I'd recommend an understable fairway driver, e.g. Eagle, Leopard3, or anything else you fancy in the 7/X/-2/X range.

3. My own point: Distance will come fast or slow, depending on how you practice, your natural athletic ability, and how much time you dedicate to it. I got to 350' within 6 months of throwing backhand. However, I only gained 50' over the course of the next 3 years or so after that due to not really focusing on distance. Howevr, in the last 8 months (with 2 months off for injury), I have worked on NOTHING ELSE other than form/distance. Correspondingly, I have gained about 75' in that time-frame.

If you want to throw far, be prepared to work for it. I'm not usually one for hard rules, but I'd say a minimum 2 days (maximum of 3, no more) of field work per week, with a minimum of 30 drives per session will be required if you want to make steady progress in distance.

Distance increases seem to come in spurts, often in 20-25' increments. Don't get discouraged if you go for a month with seemingly nothing changing. Keep practicing and putting in the work, and you'll improve.

Oh, and make sure you warm up sufficiently. Injury is the last thing you want when trying to improve.
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  #40  
Old 07-08-2022, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Responding to these two points:

1. Agree. I'm a prime example of someone who, by non-pro standards, throws "far", and I have a good bit left to improve in my form.

2. I don't always agree with only throwing slower discs. There is a big difference in throwing feel and flight characteristics between a mid-range and a fairway driver due to the rim differences (going from 5 to 7 speed is a large change in feel and flight), as well as a necessary difference in throwing height.

My opinion: If you want distance, you need to learn to control nose and release angles of drivers, and throwing only mid-ranges doesn't help with that. I think you should be throwing discs that, when released with a bit of hyzer, flip up and drift right a bit before coming back. At your arm speed (350'-ish), I'd recommend an understable fairway driver, e.g. Eagle, Leopard3, or anything else you fancy in the 7/X/-2/X range.

3. My own point: Distance will come fast or slow, depending on how you practice, your natural athletic ability, and how much time you dedicate to it. I got to 350' within 6 months of throwing backhand. However, I only gained 50' over the course of the next 3 years or so after that due to not really focusing on distance. Howevr, in the last 8 months (with 2 months off for injury), I have worked on NOTHING ELSE other than form/distance. Correspondingly, I have gained about 75' in that time-frame.

If you want to throw far, be prepared to work for it. I'm not usually one for hard rules, but I'd say a minimum 2 days (maximum of 3, no more) of field work per week, with a minimum of 30 drives per session will be required if you want to make steady progress in distance.

Distance increases seem to come in spurts, often in 20-25' increments. Don't get discouraged if you go for a month with seemingly nothing changing. Keep practicing and putting in the work, and you'll improve.

Oh, and make sure you warm up sufficiently. Injury is the last thing you want when trying to improve.

Appreciate whenever you weigh in, thanks :-) I did want to follow up & clarify the "throw slower discs" idea since I know this idea has a flip side. I'm personally at a stage where I'm still getting plenty out of that approach, and part of my own circumstance is that I'm limited because I literally need a bigger field than I have easy access to do distance driver work. The spirit of what I'm getting at is that it's good to have a calibrator at each form stage. You can still develop pretty good angle/trajectory control with slow discs, but Icarus is right that the angles/trajectory mistakes matter when clubbing up and the only way to learn it is to do it. Mixing a few drivers in there helps you see those problems more quickly, and I do break out the big guns on more open courses and get obvious distance advantages even though I know I'm going to need to find a place to do more work on that later.

I learned a lot from Icarus' prior comment about spacing out training and learning about athletic recovery. I'm still throwing a little bit less than I'd like while coming back from a close call due to my excitement/stupidity, but the spacing has made each session way more effective.

Yes, echoing to please warm up - lots of dynamic stretches before even doing upshots. Get nice and loose and bouncy, make sure you can get your "fully loaded bow" posture easily in both directions before yeeting discs. Notice that both Icarus and I had injuries of one kind or another in a relatively short period of intense focus on form and distance :-)
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