#101  
Old 07-15-2019, 01:51 PM
EarthRocker EarthRocker is offline
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Mr. Patheticus, you are nothing if not a provocateur. For which talent I have much respect. Sure wish you could do it without resorting to certain phrases. “Exceptionally stagnant” just does not ring true to my ears. But I stood in front of drums and amps for years, so maybe the ol’ tinnitus is acting up.

Usually after reading your posts, there is a knee-jerk that I have to fight. Because you parse every proclamation for inaccuracies or vagueness, it behooves one to tread carefully with language. A quick-fire volley simply for the sake of it does no good whatsoever. So I’ve been Thinking more than Writing lately.

The more you say on the subject, the closer we get to the root of your Big Feelings.

For someone who praises the Pancake and extols the virtues of simple language, you often run the risk of losing your potential audience or even possible amanuenses through a sort of condescension that isn’t really intentional, I feel, but… sometimes your posts read that way. No offense intended. This is honesty as I know it.

Golf (both types) is the only athletic contest during which you don’t have an opponent actively trying to prevent you from your goal. There are other people trying to accomplish the same goal, but it would be bad form indeed to jump out and slap down someone’s disc in flight. Also bad form, but much harder, to knock down a ball in flight. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible... The point is that golf is a solitary, self-directed competition wherein one tries to overcome doubts about the self and obstacles put in place by the designer of the course being played. (Darts and billiards are not what I consider to be athletic. Leave that hair un-split, please.)
Did I say, ‘competition?’ Screw it. Leave that for those who want to measure every throw or willy. Somewhat like you, I don’t care if I shoot a better score than you or the next person. The fun, the benefit, is in simply Being There. I don’t believe ‘competition’ has much to do with whether or not we want to throw well, or far, or what have you. I think it’s something more or less fundamental: when we endeavor to “do something,” we want to do it well. Otherwise, what’s the point? It doesn’t have to be about a score, or a comparison against what the other guy is doing, or even a comparison against the Self. It can be – and probably should ever only be – about taking a certain amount of pleasure from doing a thing the right way, or to the best of our respective abilities.

If I make a ham sandwich, I try to keep the meat, you know, on the bread. Call me crazy. It’s not because I’m going to be judged on it. It’s not because some Sandwich Maker in the Sky is pricking down a tally. It’s because the between-the-breadness is what makes it a damned sandwich…
Similarly, I try to throw a disc down the middle of the fairway. Not because it will necessarily translate into a “better” score on the hole. We all know how easy it is to bogey a hole after a nice drive. No, it’s because throwing down the fairway and getting into the basket is the friggin’ object. Period. No history book will mark my score, and no one really cares about what I’m doing except for me.

A “net positive” in this discussion would almost have to be subjective, therefore a moving target with no right or wrong answer. And in whose Universe is competition viewed as positive? Is it really the “essential root of sport?” Because I would argue (today, anyway) that exercise is the root of my efforts. Everything about PLAYING is good. Inactivity is BAD. All the scoring and shot-dissection is there to give our brains something to do when the rest of our Being is unconsciously moving under its own impetus.

Ultimately, I think I understand what you’re getting at. What I don’t understand is WHY you’re trying so hard to do it. We could have already played 126 holes and then some, and had enough time to sit and enjoy the silence of simple enjoyment, if we weren’t in here trying to put a value on something so invaluable.

Respectfully submitted.
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  #102  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:22 PM
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Putt for D'oh Putt for D'oh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
Competition in sport is viewed, almost universally, as a positive. As the essential root of sport.

Can anyone recognize any negatives? If so, is reconciliation with the positives of sport possible? The question as always: what is the net value? If it is negative, do we have the guts to decline that transaction?
Why are you so adamant that competition be found to be negative? For starters you have come to a place in this forum that is filled with and essentially caters to a group of people who quite literally find their leisure in competition of varying degrees. The audience for your question is inherently biased. That is not a bad thing, simply going to be a tough place for your question, and tougher place to get the answer you are searching for. The bias in the general viewpoint here is no worse than the bias you seem to have in starting the thread.

I can understand that you are asking people to search for a negative and maybe self evaluate. That's fine, but you are also not accepting the answer to your question.

Is competition negative?
No

You have an opinion you want validated and so far it looks like that is not going to happen here. There are a lot of degrees of competition and a lot of different ways competition can take place. The negatives? In my opinion are similar to many things in life it is not the overall subject of competition but comes down to the individual person. Not every hyper-competitive person is a jerk. Not every jerk is a jerk in the competitive situation. BUT overly competitive jerks are horrible people that can ruin a day just because of who they are. It is not competition that is bad, but it is unfortunate that often we don't see the bad side of these particular individuals until they are in a competitive environment, OR when they chose to be overly competitive in a situation that is non-competitive or casual.

It would be very unfortunate if those overly competitive jerks were to color everyone's overall view of competition.

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Last edited by Putt for D'oh; 07-15-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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  #103  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:33 PM
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Streets Streets is offline
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Why can't we just landfill this already?
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  #104  
Old 07-15-2019, 04:13 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Because it is interesting.

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  #105  
Old 07-15-2019, 04:58 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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And voluntary.

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  #106  
Old 07-16-2019, 12:01 AM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthRocker View Post
Mr. Patheticus, you are nothing if not a provocateur. For which talent I have much respect. Sure wish you could do it without resorting to certain phrases. “Exceptionally stagnant” just does not ring true to my ears. But I stood in front of drums and amps for years, so maybe the ol’ tinnitus is acting up.

Usually after reading your posts, there is a knee-jerk that I have to fight. Because you parse every proclamation for inaccuracies or vagueness, it behooves one to tread carefully with language. A quick-fire volley simply for the sake of it does no good whatsoever. So I’ve been Thinking more than Writing lately.

The more you say on the subject, the closer we get to the root of your Big Feelings.

For someone who praises the Pancake and extols the virtues of simple language, you often run the risk of losing your potential audience or even possible amanuenses through a sort of condescension that isn’t really intentional, I feel, but… sometimes your posts read that way. No offense intended. This is honesty as I know it.

Golf (both types) is the only athletic contest during which you don’t have an opponent actively trying to prevent you from your goal. There are other people trying to accomplish the same goal, but it would be bad form indeed to jump out and slap down someone’s disc in flight. Also bad form, but much harder, to knock down a ball in flight. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible... The point is that golf is a solitary, self-directed competition wherein one tries to overcome doubts about the self and obstacles put in place by the designer of the course being played. (Darts and billiards are not what I consider to be athletic. Leave that hair un-split, please.)
Did I say, ‘competition?’ Screw it. Leave that for those who want to measure every throw or willy. Somewhat like you, I don’t care if I shoot a better score than you or the next person. The fun, the benefit, is in simply Being There. I don’t believe ‘competition’ has much to do with whether or not we want to throw well, or far, or what have you. I think it’s something more or less fundamental: when we endeavor to “do something,” we want to do it well. Otherwise, what’s the point? It doesn’t have to be about a score, or a comparison against what the other guy is doing, or even a comparison against the Self. It can be – and probably should ever only be – about taking a certain amount of pleasure from doing a thing the right way, or to the best of our respective abilities.

If I make a ham sandwich, I try to keep the meat, you know, on the bread. Call me crazy. It’s not because I’m going to be judged on it. It’s not because some Sandwich Maker in the Sky is pricking down a tally. It’s because the between-the-breadness is what makes it a damned sandwich…
Similarly, I try to throw a disc down the middle of the fairway. Not because it will necessarily translate into a “better” score on the hole. We all know how easy it is to bogey a hole after a nice drive. No, it’s because throwing down the fairway and getting into the basket is the friggin’ object. Period. No history book will mark my score, and no one really cares about what I’m doing except for me.

A “net positive” in this discussion would almost have to be subjective, therefore a moving target with no right or wrong answer. And in whose Universe is competition viewed as positive? Is it really the “essential root of sport?” Because I would argue (today, anyway) that exercise is the root of my efforts. Everything about PLAYING is good. Inactivity is BAD. All the scoring and shot-dissection is there to give our brains something to do when the rest of our Being is unconsciously moving under its own impetus.

Ultimately, I think I understand what you’re getting at. What I don’t understand is WHY you’re trying so hard to do it. We could have already played 126 holes and then some, and had enough time to sit and enjoy the silence of simple enjoyment, if we weren’t in here trying to put a value on something so invaluable.

Respectfully submitted.
You have described playing (baseball, disc golf, climbing, lots of other activities) more or less as I understand and experience it. I'm not trying to decide if disc golf is negative or positive, but if competition is. I have no doubt that most things can be enjoyed without negative competition. I am also convinced that negative competition exists, and is often misrepresented or misunderstood as being essential and positive.
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  #107  
Old 07-16-2019, 12:18 AM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
Why are you so adamant that competition be found to be negative? For starters you have come to a place in this forum that is filled with and essentially caters to a group of people who quite literally find their leisure in competition of varying degrees. The audience for your question is inherently biased. That is not a bad thing, simply going to be a tough place for your question, and tougher place to get the answer you are searching for. The bias in the general viewpoint here is no worse than the bias you seem to have in starting the thread.

I can understand that you are asking people to search for a negative and maybe self evaluate. That's fine, but you are also not accepting the answer to your question.

Is competition negative?
No

You have an opinion you want validated and so far it looks like that is not going to happen here. There are a lot of degrees of competition and a lot of different ways competition can take place. The negatives? In my opinion are similar to many things in life it is not the overall subject of competition but comes down to the individual person. Not every hyper-competitive person is a jerk. Not every jerk is a jerk in the competitive situation. BUT overly competitive jerks are horrible people that can ruin a day just because of who they are. It is not competition that is bad, but it is unfortunate that often we don't see the bad side of these particular individuals until they are in a competitive environment, OR when they chose to be overly competitive in a situation that is non-competitive or casual.

It would be very unfortunate if those overly competitive jerks were to color everyone's overall view of competition.
I'm also genuinely looking for positives that I may have missed. I assumed that this would be a good place to ask for them.

As mentioned earlier, these questions came to me after studying economic and ecological competition. Economic competition, as practiced in this country for example, divides people and places into categories of winners and losers and damages the health of everyone and everything involved. A healthy ecology on the other hand, though it still involves competition, integrates and diversifies and balances and preserves.

Since competition in disc golf (for example) divides winners from losers and encourages self-absorption and denial of reality, I find it closer to a ruinous economy than to a wholesome ecology.
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  #108  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:16 AM
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Keller Keller is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streets View Post
Why can't we just landfill this already?
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Because it is interesting.
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
And voluntary.
And actually a bit competitive

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  #109  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:26 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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And actually a bit competitive
I niced that 10 times, though it only shows once.

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  #110  
Old 07-16-2019, 05:18 PM
franklinturnover franklinturnover is offline
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So I've just read snippets of this thread, is it worth the read at all?
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