#801  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:36 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by Harold Duvall View Post
Hole 3 is intended to reflect our golf heritage and the growing partnership between disc golf and golf. We chose a double mandatory to showcase how disc golf accuracy could be brought to the wide open golf spaces. The double mandatory also reduces the chances of divoting from throws compared to a single or no mandatory. I believe almost every good thing in disc golf has its origins in golf. We are golfs child, and we should honor our parent. Disc golf and golf are going to be more and more like two generations living in the family house. While we need to honor, and sometimes care for, our parents, we need to respect ourselves too. I do not want to portray disc golfers as a second-class citizen on the golf course tiptoeing off the very surface the golfers hit to and play on. We will continue to talk with golfers and course superintendents to make sure we do our part to honor and protect both versions of golf.
That’s an interesting and rational take. I fully agree we should not be second-class citizens.

To me, being accepted as equals depends on understanding the special considerations of golf courses. Things like driving carts gently and only in certain areas. It does not depend on demanding to use the same parts of the course. If that is equal, we would need to concede when the golfers want to start playing in the woods between the fairways.

Also, not throwing projectiles that are a lot sharper than a golf ball and weigh four times as much onto a surface that is very expensive to keep in ball-putt worthy condition. We do not carry around disc-mark repair tools; we should not be landing on the green. Nor should we be walking across or jump-putting or running up and following through with our clunky-treaded shoes and boots on a surface that is only meant for standing still or walking gently in golf shoes.

Anyway, the green is the least interesting part of the course for us. Who needs it?

But, it is far more important to listen to the golfers and superintendents than to listen to me.

(As for the double mando, I think the problem is that it was not brought to the wide-open spaces, but was placed just beyond them.)
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  #802  
Old 10-16-2019, 03:29 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by Harold Duvall View Post
...Championship disc golf, which is also about the spectator, may need *some bad shots to count two to increase the emotional engagement for both player and spectator...
Highly punishing holes like 17 might well make the emotions higher, at the particular moment of playing them, for both the player and the spectator.

But when the players position in the overall standings, built up over the whole tournament, through many small incremental actions, can get demolished in a single hole...

I find that I get emotionally disengaged and disinvested from following the players journey. The more punishment moves towards being capricious, the less bothered I am about following the narrative of any of the players journey to victory or defeat.

It is analogous to films or books that suddenly dump a major character, or drop a major plot line, for no discernable reason. It makes me think, well why did I bother investing emotionally, if everything I've invested in can change in a moment, seemingly without a valid reason. Sudden jumps in narrative can break the viewers engagement.

So while holes like 17 maybe exciting in the moment, I find they make me overall less engaged and devalue the experience of watching the tournament as a whole.

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  #803  
Old 10-16-2019, 03:41 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Hole 17

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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Is it enough to be worth the cost of giving this one little hole so much influence over final standings? [B]Doesn't it reduce interest in other holes?[b]
Yes, for me it does reduce interest in other holes.

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  #804  
Old 10-16-2019, 10:49 AM
1978 1978 is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Highly punishing holes like 17 might well make the emotions higher, at the particular moment of playing them, for both the player and the spectator.

But when the players position in the overall standings, built up over the whole tournament, through many small incremental actions, can get demolished in a single hole...

I find that I get emotionally disengaged and disinvested from following the players journey. The more punishment moves towards being capricious, the less bothered I am about following the narrative of any of the players journey to victory or defeat.

It is analogous to films or books that suddenly dump a major character, or drop a major plot line, for no discernable reason. It makes me think, well why did I bother investing emotionally, if everything I've invested in can change in a moment, seemingly without a valid reason. Sudden jumps in narrative can break the viewers engagement.

So while holes like 17 maybe exciting in the moment, I find they make me overall less engaged and devalue the experience of watching the tournament as a whole.

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Understand your point, I felt the same way this year...but at what other event can you see a complete field change when a leader has a 4 stroke lead going into the 17th---70th hole of a tournament. So while the hole ultimately reduces the drama leading up to it because we are all watching to see what happens there, that is a fault of a over confident disc golfer. The hole is fine. The way the players play it is the problem. Players stubbornness on hole 17 has made it the biggest part of the event, not the hole itself. It is a relatively easy sidearm from the tee and any shot from the layup.

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  #805  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:03 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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I guess we need to know how much this hole is dominating the results. By looking at how each player’s ranking would have changed if a hole had not been played, we can calculate how much impact each hole had.



#17 has about 80% more impact than the average of the other holes. Not overwhelming, but certainly disproportionate.

Other stats indicate that the changes in ranking by #17 are less random than other holes, and its contribution to total scoring spread is also largest. Which is good. However, when a hole gives out a lot of different large numbers, both of these are easier to achieve. #17 is a little below average in how well it spreads total scores for the number of ranking changes it causes.

If I were to mess with #17, I would leave it as is, except for making the OB areas Relief Areas. That would make its impact more proportionate to the other holes.
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  #806  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:55 AM
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DiscJunkie DiscJunkie is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post

If I were to mess with #17, I would leave it as is, except for making the OB areas Relief Areas. That would make its impact more proportionate to the other holes.
Relief Areas?
I'm not sure what you mean.
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  #807  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:56 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Relief Areas?
I'm not sure what you mean.
played as OB but with no penalty
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  #808  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:27 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
I guess we need to know how much this hole is dominating the results. By looking at how each player’s ranking would have changed if a hole had not been played, we can calculate how much impact each hole had.



#17 has about 80% more impact than the average of the other holes. Not overwhelming, but certainly disproportionate.
And less than 40% more effect than four other holes.

That's less than I would have expected. To my taste, there's nothing wrong with having some critical holes, or holes that have more influence on the results than others. As long as the difference isn't extreme ("extreme" being in the eye of the beholder).
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  #809  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:44 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
played as OB but with no penalty
Essentially, the buncr rule where you count the missed throw as a "penalty" and throw again from previous lie. Your cumulative score on the hole is only one higher rather than 2 for each throw that doesn't make the green.
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  #810  
Old 10-16-2019, 04:54 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Yes, it is no-penalty OB. So the TD can designate drop zones, greater relief, mark near the disc, everything they can do with OB, just without the penalty throw.

Here is the actual rule.

Quote:
806.04 Relief Area
Last updated: Friday, December 1, 2017 - 10:34

A relief area is an area designated by the Director from which a disc may not be played, or any in-bounds area that players are prohibited by law from entering. A relief area is played as an out-of-bounds area with the exception that no penalty throw is assessed to a player whose disc comes to rest in a relief area.
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