#21  
Old 01-11-2020, 03:02 AM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
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Jeff in June is talking common sense, out of ignorance, to a group of narrow-sighted specialists. He's apparently new to these old elitist controversies. I agree with him: No matter how wrong he is or right you are, I'm glad you're not in charge. Why? Because a good course is a fun course. If people can't politely share a park without hurting each other, it's not the park's fault. Having played around and thrown over tennis courts many many times (and sidewalks, roads, picnic areas, playgrounds, basketball courts, fishing spots, hiking trails, volleyball courts, horseshoe pits, baseball fields, etc.), I have never endangered or enraged anyone. And I've had fun.

People who are engaged in other park activities have every right to not be part of our game? Hogwash. The right to live your life among billions of humans and trillions of creatures and organisms as if you are the only thing existing or important is one of the most pathetic (if widely imagined) of the imaginary rights. We're all part of one another's game, like it or not. I like it.

If you lads want to believe that your courses superior, that's fine. Make them superior by making them more fun. Don't detract from "bad designs" by magnifying issues that are being successfully dealt with hundreds or thousands of times every day.
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  #22  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:32 AM
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hiflyer hiflyer is offline
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Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
Jeff in June is talking common sense, out of ignorance, to a group of narrow-sighted specialists. He's apparently new to these old elitist controversies. I agree with him: No matter how wrong he is or right you are, I'm glad you're not in charge. Why? Because a good course is a fun course. If people can't politely share a park without hurting each other, it's not the park's fault. Having played around and thrown over tennis courts many many times (and sidewalks, roads, picnic areas, playgrounds, basketball courts, fishing spots, hiking trails, volleyball courts, horseshoe pits, baseball fields, etc.), I have never endangered or enraged anyone. And I've had fun.

People who are engaged in other park activities have every right to not be part of our game? Hogwash. The right to live your life among billions of humans and trillions of creatures and organisms as if you are the only thing existing or important is one of the most pathetic (if widely imagined) of the imaginary rights. We're all part of one another's game, like it or not. I like it.

If you lads want to believe that your courses superior, that's fine. Make them superior by making them more fun. Don't detract from "bad designs" by magnifying issues that are being successfully dealt with hundreds or thousands of times every day.
Alright, so if a hole is fun to play, despite the basket being smack in the middle of the toddler play yard, then it's OK with you? I mean its fun to throw on that hole, so who cares if I involve that 3yr olds head in my game: Its fun and we should all be a part of each others games.

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  #23  
Old 01-11-2020, 05:37 AM
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wolfhaley wolfhaley is online now
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I think the OP means that there is literally NEVER anyone playing tennis on his course. My local 18 has two tennis courts and some horseshoe pits. Also a baseball diamond. I've seen, I kid you not, Zero people ever playing horseshoes. Out of over 100 times of playing my home course, maybe twice, seen people playing tennis. Almost every time I play there is at least 1 other group playing DG. I DO agree with you all about the course design aspects. A lot depends on the location. He does have a point though, a strong one. And people who walk a park everyday with their dog HAVE to have seen people playing "fast frisbee". They could, and should, pick up their dog's s*** too. Coexistence right?

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  #24  
Old 01-11-2020, 11:30 AM
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ray1970 ray1970 is offline
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I can think of one course near me with a hole that plays alongside and around the corner of some tennis courts. Pretty sure they have something on the sign at the tee pad specifically saying not to throw over the courts. Playing diagonally over the courts would be the ideal play for a RHBH shot but even though there aren’t people playing tennis we abide by the rule. It also effectively makes the hole more difficult by basically making the far corner of the fence a mando of sorts.

I’m pretty patient with other people interfering with play if the area is multi use but when you step up to the pad and there’s a homeless camp set up in the middle of the fairway it kind of ruffles me. I’ve literally had two or three shots where I played my second shot from their living rooms.
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Old 01-12-2020, 08:44 AM
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Pymm Pymm is offline
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There are some extreme positions being taken here. Courses should be designed with safety in mind but often they are not. I don't have any control over how a course is laid out but I do have control over whether I play a hole or not. My rule of thumb is this: If my best or worst throw could hit someone, I don't throw. I've waited for people to clear the area, politely asked people to move, and skipped holes entirely. If no one is on the tennis court, throw over it all you want. If someone is on the tennis court, don't throw over it or even close to it. It seems like common sense and common decency to me. I don't think we need to say all courses are bad if they have some sketchy areas where multi-use patrons might come into contact nor do we need to act like people being concerned over safety are elitist or somehow live in a bubble.

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Old 01-12-2020, 10:03 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pymm View Post
There are some extreme positions being taken here. Courses should be designed with safety in mind but often they are not. I don't have any control over how a course is laid out but I do have control over whether I play a hole or not. My rule of thumb is this: If my best or worst throw could hit someone, I don't throw. I've waited for people to clear the area, politely asked people to move, and skipped holes entirely. If no one is on the tennis court, throw over it all you want. If someone is on the tennis court, don't throw over it or even close to it. It seems like common sense and common decency to me. I don't think we need to say all courses are bad if they have some sketchy areas where multi-use patrons might come into contact nor do we need to act like people being concerned over safety are elitist or somehow live in a bubble.
The bolded is fine and works...if the throwers are using common sense. The problem is that there are throwers who do not use common sense. That's where the question of good/bad design comes in, IMO. Good design takes into account the players who will inevitably ignore common sense and decency and throw over the tennis court while there are players on it. Good design should always take into account your philosophy on playing a given hole.

A lot of older courses were designed with slight and moderate compromises on that philosophy just to get them installed at all. We should be at a stage now where we don't have to compromise those sorts of safety concerns just to get a course in the ground. I think that's the overall point being made. Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

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Old 01-12-2020, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The bolded is fine and works...if the throwers are using common sense. The problem is that there are throwers who do not use common sense. That's where the question of good/bad design comes in, IMO. Good design takes into account the players who will inevitably ignore common sense and decency and throw over the tennis court while there are players on it. Good design should always take into account your philosophy on playing a given hole.

A lot of older courses were designed with slight and moderate compromises on that philosophy just to get them installed at all. We should be at a stage now where we don't have to compromise those sorts of safety concerns just to get a course in the ground. I think that's the overall point being made. Just because we can doesn't mean we should.
The bolded part is a salient point. I guess I sometimes think that the majority of our community embody good values such as common sense and a concern for others, even though I am presented with examples counter to that view every day. So, yeah, good insight; and I reluctantly agree with you.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:28 PM
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armiller armiller is offline
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Millpond County Park in Bishop, CA, was the course. (based on course ID in the OP) Hole 4 does look to be a dog leg around the tennis courts.

We have a hole (17 on Seth Burton Memorial in Fairmont, WV) where most advanced and MPO players go over a fenced in court. But it's an old tennis court that doesn't even have nets in the posts at this point. Like Wolfhaley on his course with the horseshoes, I've never seen a park user on those courts. The bigger issue there is that other players on the tee for Hole 15 might be at risk.

No matter how good (or bad) a course's design with respect to safety, the course and park are likely to evolve. One of the most important features of a course on public property, and maybe any course, is the presence of a local disc golf organization that can make changes to the course as new safety issues arise. And, of course, it helps when disc golfers exercise common sense and courtesy. Unfortunately that's rarer than we'd like to admit.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:20 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
I often wonder if some of my fellow course designers ascribe to this. I certainly do personally. I see courses going into places where they have no business being on a semi-regular basis in addition to seeing 18 hole courses that would be much better served as 9 or 12. We are way past the point where "any course is a good course".
I agree and am likely going to have to reiterate this many times, but there are people who have had training in course design, specifically in how to safely interact the design in a multi-use park; and then there are people calling themselves "course designers" when they are really just players who have designed or want to design a course for different reasons. I've been at courses where I can see the "designer's strengths as a player" in the way the holes are designed and how they made those choices -- without ever talking to them. There is a difference with professional or trained designers. I doubt any trained designers will ascribe to any course is better than none at all.


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Other folk have addressed the safety aspect of designing holes where players might throw over other park users.

But ignoring that for now, purely in terms of the rules - you are allowed to fly over OB, you just can't come to rest in OB.





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Of course. yes. For example, every "island-style" hole forces you to carry over out-of-bounds.

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Originally Posted by Jeff in June View Post
So any park that allows other users other than disc golfers is poorly designed and should be closed? Glad you are not in charge. I have enjoyed the few I have played at and and as far as risk, the tennis players are pretty safe compared to other users at any other course I have played at. The only risk is if someone makes a poor choice to throw over the court while someone is playing and that is no different than taking a shot while someone is walking their dog near any hole. There are way more dog walkers on any course I have seen than there ever will be tennis players near this course.
Jeff, let me state in a cleaner way so as to not be misunderstood. To say, "...as far as risk, the tennis players are pretty safe compared to..." is what I hope is my own misunderstanding of your itnent. Because I have worked in the public sector for more than 30 years and I have yet to find a city manager/parks & rec superintendent/city council to pass anything (much less disc golf), when the design is "pretty safe" for the already intended usage. What many of us are saying (on the back end) is that having an unsafe usage design creates a risk of a person getting hit or nearly getting hit, and if so, that can cause the entire course to be pulled. I've seen it happen. And THAT, my friend is the problem for the disc golf community as a whole.

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Originally Posted by armiller View Post
Millpond County Park in Bishop, CA, was the course. (based on course ID in the OP) Hole 4 does look to be a dog leg around the tennis courts.

We have a hole (17 on Seth Burton Memorial in Fairmont, WV) where most advanced and MPO players go over a fenced in court. But it's an old tennis court that doesn't even have nets in the posts at this point. Like Wolfhaley on his course with the horseshoes, I've never seen a park user on those courts. The bigger issue there is that other players on the tee for Hole 15 might be at risk.

No matter how good (or bad) a course's design with respect to safety, the course and park are likely to evolve. One of the most important features of a course on public property, and maybe any course, is the presence of a local disc golf organization that can make changes to the course as new safety issues arise. And, of course, it helps when disc golfers exercise common sense and courtesy. Unfortunately that's rarer than we'd like to admit.
You are right that on any multi-use course we depend on disc golfers to use common sense. That's partially why the PDGA adopted the Disc Golfer's Code. Even in well designed courses, even some with major events, there are times when the disc golfer should yield to the other park user -- be it a dog-walker, exerciser, horseshoer, pickleballer, etc. And yes, courses evolve. A course may have been designed once upon a time where some huge obstacle (like a tree) prevented that route over the dangerous place, wherein, once an act of God eliminated that tree, it is now more problematic and some type of change needs to be made. And it does work both ways... if that old tennis court doesn't even have a net any more it's really no longer a tennis court, just a partially fenced in, paved area (assuming not a grass court). We SHOULD incorporate good design with safety and still we, the disc golfers, must use that common sense.

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  #30  
Old 01-15-2020, 01:39 PM
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cydisc cydisc is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The bolded is fine and works...if the throwers are using common sense. The problem is that there are throwers who do not use common sense...
Let's not forget that for a good number of players out there, new ones in particular, the disc doesn't always go where it's intended, so, even if you're trying to avoid throwing into a group playing basketball, you just might.

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