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View Poll Results: Should the PDGA allow opting out of player packs?
Yes 24 48.98%
No 25 51.02%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 11-27-2019, 01:34 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
Where else would I get any revenue? PROs produce zero revenue.
Thanks for posting that because that is an important point in this discussion and obviously helps others (including myself) understand where tds get their revenue from.
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  #42  
Old 11-27-2019, 01:35 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Wait... you're basing your numbers and time investment on a $10.00 entry fee? Where on earth do you get that number from?
Just a hypothetical number. If the players are really that concerned with the entry fee, then $10 seems as good a number as any.

I usually charge $40 for PDGA B-Tiers and $30 for PDGA C-Tiers - so, lets say an opt-out entry would be $20 and $15 respectively....same formula applies after that.
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  #43  
Old 11-27-2019, 01:43 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
Just a hypothetical number. If the players are really that concerned with the entry fee, then $10 seems as good a number as any.

I usually charge $40 for PDGA B-Tiers and $30 for PDGA C-Tiers - so, lets say an opt-out entry would be $20 and $15 respectively....same formula applies after that.
Just from my personal experiences, it would be closer to $45 / $25. But it's not just about lower fees in general, it's the thought of "why did I pay x amount to play and be stuck with this stuff I have no use for?" I mean...c'mon....we ALL know that happens at pretty much every tournament in some capacity.
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  #44  
Old 11-27-2019, 02:03 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
oh for fks sake...please.. I'm not dick..tating or arguing anything. It's called a discussion and a poll. And so far it's pretty evenly spread. Get over your drama self, it's just a discussion and I'm not trying to push anything down anyone's throat. jeesh...triggered much?
Triggered?

I'm just discussing as well. People with experience say one thing. You, with admitted inexperience (you framed your point of view as being a player not a TD), say you disagree with it. Why shouldn't the logical response from those with experience, like myself, be anything other than "prove your point"?

I'm open minded enough to have my mind changed, but I don't think an internet poll is really the way to do it. It could be 100 to 1 in favor of forcing an opt-out, it wouldn't change the reasons why it's a bad idea. For me it would take empirical evidence to convince me.

I've done some experimenting with a la carte style entries...basically opting in/out for payouts, opting in/out for player pack, etc. It was over 10 years ago, so maybe my experience is no longer valid, but I found that players preferred to just sign up and pay the same fee as everyone else. An add on for ace pot was about the extent of the extras they wanted to deal with. Introducing optional player packs strikes me as extra work for less reward.

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  #45  
Old 11-27-2019, 02:30 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
THAT is definitely a problem. I was assuming the player pack fee would have nothing to do with payouts. But...hmm...I have seen other optional purchases like discs, tshirts, etc, in tournaments that I played, guessing they probably didn't include that in the total entry fee.
The requirement is that the payout (players pack + prizes) comes out of entries.

For C-tiers it must be 85% of entries, but everywhere I've seen around here, it's 100%. For B-tiers, it's 100%.

It can be no-players pack (or 10%, in B-tiers), all going to prizes. It can be all players packs, no prizes. Or some combination.

That's the requirement. There are all sorts of variations.

Some TDs raise the players pack from sponsors, so all the entry goes to prizes. It wouldn't do any good to opt out of that.

Some TDs provide custom-stamped discs, shirts, etc. as the players pack. These have the added problem of needing to know how many to buy, so they don't get stuck with excess. But many events around here have a selection of discs for prizes and purchase; they give vouchers for the players pack, so you can get what you want from the selection. (If you're like me you may not want anything, but at least you get a selection).

Unless the players packs come from sponsors, it's all the same money to the TD---entry fee buys merch, for players packs or prizes, and the margin between wholesale/retail on that funds the fixed costs of the event, perhaps with some excess. The profit on the players pack isn't really separable from the rest; if the TD did away with players packs and put it all in to prizes, his bottom line would be the same.

So there you are. Opting in or out would be a hassle for the TD, so it's all-or-nothing on the players packs. TDs will do what they believe most players want, and the players who don't want the same thing, will just have to live with it. But that's true on the total entry fee, divisions offered, number of rounds, and everything else about a tournament.

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  #46  
Old 11-27-2019, 03:05 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Just from my personal experiences, it would be closer to $45 / $25. But it's not just about lower fees in general, it's the thought of "why did I pay x amount to play and be stuck with this stuff I have no use for?" I mean...c'mon....we ALL know that happens at pretty much every tournament in some capacity.
True - that does happen.

At the same time, the other 90% think "Awesome, I got a cool players pack" or "Well, even if I do not win anything, at least I got the players pack" or my favorite...........

"There better be a players pack worth X amount if I paid X amount to play", usually not even considering all the other financial obligations and selfless contributions by many people to put on the event in the first place.

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Side note, somewhat related:

Granted - Bringing new players into the disc golf tournament scene is very gratifying and so on...but, more related to your player pack inquiries is the following short novella.

One of my favorite things as a TD is rewarding the players that play my events but will never cash. You know and they know that they most likely will never improve to any real degree. They do not ask for sympathy or walk around sulking. They are the first to compliment you as a TD and are often the players that offer to help before, during and after an event. These players will come to varying events all season and year after year.

Many of these players play many events with very little to nothing to show for their efforts. Not advocating that swag' is the only reason they play, just noting having something physical to show in relation to an activity you are passionate about can be a part of the reward.

It became evident to me that those players fuel a lions share of why I TD and I want make sure that they, specifically, feel as though my events are worth their money, time and participation.

Having an event specific custom stamped disc and logo emblazoned shirt is the least I can do in return for their loyalty. I also think that for some it may be quite an important element of the whole venture.

In my mind, they all now have something to show their friends, family, other kids at school or co-workers. They have something the above people may see them wearing or in their home and open a conversation up about. Maybe playing DG with friends that play casually and they notice the "Cool" stamp on the disc and ask about it, now they can tell of their adventures in tournament play - places they go and people they meet.

Just an overall thought of these players loving "It" and are rewarded by wearing "It" - throwing "It" - sharing "It". Whether the experience of "It" is meeting all the different people, the new courses, road trips, competition, exercise, social aspects or feeling like you have a second family..."It" is important.

So, providing these players with a physical piece of "It" is also providing them with a reason, tool or opportunity to share "It" with their world outside of disc golf. I like to think that regardless of their physical, social, economic or mental status, that this one small piece of "It" will always bring something positive into their world.



EDIT: Too much right? Yeah, I agree. BUT, just wasted the rest of the work day....see ya' suckers!


Last edited by Chains Bailey; 11-27-2019 at 03:07 PM.
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  #47  
Old 11-27-2019, 04:00 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
True - that does happen.

At the same time, the other 90% think "Awesome, I got a cool players pack" or "Well, even if I do not win anything, at least I got the players pack" or my favorite...........

"There better be a players pack worth X amount if I paid X amount to play", usually not even considering all the other financial obligations and selfless contributions by many people to put on the event in the first place.
And a few who think, "I played in a tournament!"

As in, "I paid my entry fee and played an organized event all day (or all weekend)", regardless of what stuff they took home---or didn't.

It gets a little tougher as entry fees skyrocket to cover the "stuff", though.
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  #48  
Old 11-27-2019, 04:42 PM
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Putt for D'oh Putt for D'oh is offline
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I just dislike the idea that someone can think "I don't want to pay for X part of what [B]I THINK[\B] my entry fee is going toward"

Why just player packs? I don't care to get a payout if I win so I think I should be able to opt out of payouts for a lower entry fee.
I don't think I get benefit from the club hosting the tournament so I want to opt out of the funds that go to the club and pay a lower entry fee.

These money issues continue to blow me away when I compare a what is spent on a weekend at Disc Golf compared to so many other tournaments I've played in other sports. Disc golf continues to be the absolute cheapest competition I regularly participate in and yet has the most number of people complaining about what they get for their money. At least in circles I run in in the various activities.

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  #49  
Old 11-27-2019, 05:19 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Thanks for posting that because that is an important point in this discussion and obviously helps others (including myself) understand where tds get their revenue from.
Just want to clarify something - revenue, I believe is the wrong word to be using. There often is no income left over at the end of events.

I would use the word funds - as David pointed out about the gambling aspect of events, the money really just goes in a relative circle.

Pros > $ in > $ payed back at 100%

AMs > $ in > $ payed back (At retail) in payout and players packs +

Difference in retail and wholesale = FUNDS that pay for everything else, hopefully.
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  #50  
Old 11-27-2019, 05:28 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
And a few who think, "I played in a tournament!"

As in, "I paid my entry fee and played an organized event all day (or all weekend)", regardless of what stuff they took home---or didn't.
Agreed - but I did not want to jinx' the trend that seems to be happening in this direction by mentioning it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
And.....well, after a while, it's easier to give players the option to not sign up, if they don't like it, or to run their own events.
Take note everyone - the above is an inevitable place all TDs end up, IMO. I think the next step is the TD simply not running events any longer.
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