#141  
Old 04-04-2014, 11:55 AM
notroman's Avatar
notroman notroman is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Highland Park, IL
Years Playing: 19.7
Courses Played: 216
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 4,710
Niced 340 Times in 181 Posts
Default

I had a feeling they'd be beefy. Their PLH is a hair higher than the recent SDS-like pop tops.

(Wiggins on left)
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 04-04-2014, 12:06 PM
SirRaph's Avatar
SirRaph SirRaph is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Chicago
Courses Played: 74
Posts: 1,166
Niced 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

I work in a machining and fabrication facility, spending a lot of my time doing costing and estimation. I don't know a ton about plastic injection (though we have machined molds for injection shops before) but I do know quite a bit about cost to manufacture.

First thing we need to understand is that the there isn't anyone making their fortune selling disc golf discs. We have to assume that whatever their costs are to operate (purchase a new mold, inject and cure with new processes (and the scrap product they inevitably produce) run their shop, pay their workforce, ship and distribute, market, finance pros, etc.) is higher than you'd think. There's simply too many competing brands in modern disc golf to believe we're somehow being fleeced. There aren't any DG disc makers coming out with premium line discs at $6 a piece. They're all right about the same price. So their margins and costs much be pretty well matured and understood.

The second thing we need to understand is that it's not as easy to produce a super consistent DG disc as you you'd assume. The aerodynamics of what is actually taking place in the flight of a disc are complex. So many things come into play when something is spinning at high RPM, flying through the air, hundreds and hundreds of times during the product's life. And when we're talking about consistency from one run of discs to another, the word we're looking for is not "accuracy", but "repeatability". And as I'm sure natedg could tell you, injection molding is a difficult process to do with high repeatability. It's possible, but there are real costs involved. Don't misunderstand. The costs to improve repeatability aren't only in their cost to replace a 10k mold every couple years. It's in developing a quality control program (a good QC manager will cost you $75k salary easily), manufacturing metrics (the softwares involved are very expensive...getting your ISO cert for example is $80k just in the fees and records), implementing better processes and hiring more qualified personnel, etc. Oh and that new quality team put you over 50 employees, now you have to provide health insurance -- there goes $500,000 annually, etc.

The third thing we need to understand is that disc golfers are generally very cheap, even among avid players. Let's attempt some quick math here:
How many discs can an injection machine (that's not super modern tech) produce in an hour? Let's get aggressive and say they're consistently producing 2 per minute, so 120 discs per hour.
Base plastic discs go for what, $8 a piece? And that's with the store/website taking their $ off the top. So they're probably buying them at, what, $5 a piece?
So every hour, a DG manufacturer is producing enough product to generate $600 in revenue. Add the cost of personnel, overhead, marketing, freight, etc. They're probably making 10% on that $600 gross. So as a DG injection shop, you're charging $60 or less per hour to make discs.
NateDG, what does your company charge per hour to injection mold? I bet it's more than $120 per hour. We charge that for machining on most jobs.

So that means that if a DG manufacturer wanted to produce consistent discs, they have to use manufacturing principles that would literally double their costs. You guys willing to pay $35 for a Champ Teebird? What if every one you got flew exactly like the last one? What about the once-per-year 3-discer player that constitutes the vast majority of their customer base? Hell-to-the-no they're not paying that.
That's what I thought. And that's what the DG molders know. Until the customer's desire for consistency outweighs the cost to achieve it, they're never going to make that jump.

Lastly, keep in mind the point I just illustrated, and remember that the vast majority of the product that Innova/Discraft sells is at MC Sports to a dad and two young kids. It's not like you can implement a high level QA program and only have it affect the costs of the discs you're selling to premium-disc-desiring players. Your costs go up uniformly for all of your products. So if Innova/Discraft wanted to release a premium super consistent line of discs, they have to either jack up the prices for the MC Sports shoppers, or attempt to absorb that increased cost solely through the sale of their premium super consistent discs. Which means you're now paying $70+ per disc.

Golf balls are super consistent. Golf clubs are super consistent. Golf courses are super nicely manicured. But golfers are willing to shell out the dough to experience that. Until disc golfers are ready to do the same, the quality of the equipment (discs) will match the the costs people are willing to pay...which is very little.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 04-04-2014, 05:14 PM
delaveagabeast's Avatar
delaveagabeast delaveagabeast is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: San Jose, CA
Years Playing: 12.5
Courses Played: 23
Throwing Style: RHFH
Posts: 330
Niced 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default



If the colors all looked like that I would totally buy some.. I just seem to get f'd from the proshop even when I request colors~
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 04-04-2014, 07:27 PM
HiFi's Avatar
HiFi HiFi is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NoDak
Courses Played: 28
Posts: 1,293
Niced 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

These look to have the same shape as the AJ's that have the A and J separated on the sig.

Separated sig on the right, new overlapping sig and sds-ish shape on the left.


Last edited by HiFi; 04-04-2014 at 07:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 04-04-2014, 07:29 PM
Romans 5-8's Avatar
Romans 5-8 Romans 5-8 is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Courses Played: 8
Posts: 855
Niced 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Restock tonight

https://twitter.com/InnovaProShop
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 04-04-2014, 07:48 PM
Anon's Avatar
Anon Anon is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: fargo
Years Playing: 20.7
Courses Played: 35
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,317
Niced 19 Times in 16 Posts
Default

wiggins vs. sds destroyer


wiggins vs. new AJ destroyer



Definitely feel lucky to have gotten a nice bright color considering how few of the light weights there were.

Last edited by Anon; 04-04-2014 at 07:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 04-04-2014, 08:47 PM
Anon's Avatar
Anon Anon is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: fargo
Years Playing: 20.7
Courses Played: 35
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,317
Niced 19 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Restocked. Looks like 295 max weight only.
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 04-04-2014, 09:08 PM
DannyThunders's Avatar
DannyThunders DannyThunders is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Orange , CA
Courses Played: 9
Posts: 1,269
Niced 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Enjoy your wiggins Teedevil's , my wait for real Destroyers continues
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 04-04-2014, 09:12 PM
HiFi's Avatar
HiFi HiFi is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NoDak
Courses Played: 28
Posts: 1,293
Niced 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyThunders View Post
Enjoy your wiggins Teedevil's , my wait for real Destroyers continues
Someone is going to have to break the sad news to David that Danny has revealed his discs as forgeries.

Poor kid.
Reply With Quote
 

  #150  
Old 04-04-2014, 09:35 PM
lilwig lilwig is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2
Niced 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I want to thank everyone that has helped support my tour by purchasing a tour series Destroyer! It means a lot and I couldn't be on the road without your support. I also want to give a shout out to Les White for designing the artwork, he is an awesome guy and an amazing artist!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Used Innova Series/Tour Series discs sumo21 The Marketplace 11 05-02-2018 01:08 PM
Tour Series, Proshop, Sig Discs rakamkram The Marketplace 10 06-07-2017 12:50 AM
Shield Stamp PD, Wiggins Destroyer, PFN Champion Monster SlappyMcGruff The Marketplace 3 04-13-2015 07:17 AM
Josh Anthon Star Destroyer (Tour Series) joelthemole3 Discs 101 11-11-2013 01:43 AM
Green Innova Proshop DX Stamp Destroyer for another color Swisher Streets The Marketplace 1 10-28-2013 09:26 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.