#81  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JTacoma03 View Post
I'm just wondering when the definitions of "competition" and "tournament" got watered down to mean "everybody gets to play with who they want, and only compete against people they deem fair to compete against"

The thing is - I don't begrudge anybody choosing their preferred card for a casual round, or a tag round with bets, or hell even a PDGA League (since divisions are mostly pointless there anyway). However the participation trophy mentality around disc golf TOURNAMENTS is really silly. Ams expect to get more than they paid in, people are unhappy if they're not the favorite to win a 4-person division, etc.

Rather than constantly trying to re-define a word that people understand globally, maybe some golfers should ask themselves if tournament competition is really for them? There's so many more avenues to compete at the level of seriousness that you desire, maybe a PDGA sanctioned event isn't the right place if you need so many accommodations...
I think it goes back to the painfully small sport running one-size-fits-all tournaments. Some people went to PDGA event to compete. Some went more for the recreation/social aspect. Everybody had to get together at the same place/time, though. There were not enough of us to do it differently. Some things were done to cater to the recreation/social golfers because they were a pool of money that the competitive golfers could tap into, either through the payout via the wholesale/retail differential or through vending. Some thing from those days have lived on in a "this is how we do it" sort of mentality.

One of those things is me as an old guy getting to sort-of pick and choose which group of guys I want to tag along with that day. In a strictly competitive environment, I can't do that. However if it's a strictly competitive environment, I wouldn't be there.
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  #82  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Winning NCAA March Madness is not really much better than the NIT because #1 in College B-Ball is like winning MA1 versus the NBA title. And winning the NIT is more like MA2. Should we ignore winners of Division 2 and 3 B-ball titles? Is winning a High School State championship like winning MA3 or MA4 in an A-tier?

While winning something called the World Title in any sport should probably be reserved for only the top open pro level, and really have competitors from around the world, not primarily the U.S., there's certainly a place for other kinds of championships that bring together the best in some category however you slice it whether by age, gender, country, Pro/Am (suspect), league level and even ratings.

Winning a competition for the Red level title, and repeating, is more of an accomplishment than most of the other slices because everyone in that competition is verified to be at your skill level that year, presuming no one below red level is allowed to enter that division. And if limited to age 40+, there are likely few if any phenoms quickly rocketing up the skill ladder on their way to white, blue and beyond. And fully agree there's no need to call it a World title, just a Championship moniker of some sort.
Without looking it up can you name one of those winners? I think most people already do ignore them.
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  #83  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:39 PM
Hyzflip10 Hyzflip10 is offline
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Originally Posted by JTacoma03 View Post
I'm just wondering when the definitions of "competition" and "tournament" got watered down to mean "everybody gets to play with who they want, and only compete against people they deem fair to compete against"

The thing is - I don't begrudge anybody choosing their preferred card for a casual round, or a tag round with bets, or hell even a PDGA League (since divisions are mostly pointless there anyway). However the participation trophy mentality around disc golf TOURNAMENTS is really silly. Ams expect to get more than they paid in, people are unhappy if they're not the favorite to win a 4-person division, etc.

Rather than constantly trying to re-define a word that people understand globally, maybe some golfers should ask themselves if tournament competition is really for them? There's so many more avenues to compete at the level of seriousness that you desire, maybe a PDGA sanctioned event isn't the right place if you need so many accommodations...
Someday the disc golf world will be large and self supporting enough to accomodate this view of "only the best of the best", but we aren't there right now. When the AM pools are basically there to support the pro side of things in many tournaments, it probably isn't a good idea to try and exclude them.

The PDGA obviously thinks that tournament are for these players, and the players who play in the age protected divisions, so I have no idea where you are coming from telling people who are playing by rules not to play tournaments?
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  #84  
Old 08-08-2019, 05:45 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Originally Posted by Jay Dub View Post
Without looking it up can you name one of those winners? I think most people already do ignore them.
I think point is that these titles are important benchmarks for the participants, even if no one else cares about them except their friends, families and schools. Even our World title from a PGA perspective is maybe like their NCAA Championship. Yet our Worlds, still with mostly U.S. players, is an important life benchmark for our participants, even if few care outside our sport.

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  #85  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:03 PM
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Putt for D'oh Putt for D'oh is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Winning a competition for the Red level title, and repeating, is more of an accomplishment than most of the other slices because everyone in that competition is verified to be at your skill level that year, presuming no one below red level is allowed to enter that division. And if limited to age 40+, there are likely few if any phenoms quickly rocketing up the skill ladder on their way to white, blue and beyond. And fully agree there's no need to call it a World title, just a Championship moniker of some sort.
??

I don't want to sound like Sonicguy but being serious enough to want to compete in a National or World level championship years in a row and being stagnant at a Red level rating? 825? Especially under 50... that would take effort to stay that low.

In my experience there are many 40+ guys starting to pickup the sport. Athletic people looking to play a relaxing game and also compete and we start out around the 880 range and within a few tournaments are 915-930 range. PLENTY of 40+ guys "rocketing up the skill ladder".
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  #86  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Winning NCAA March Madness is not really much better than the NIT because #1 in College B-Ball is like winning MA1 versus the NBA title. And winning the NIT is more like MA2. Should we ignore winners of Division 2 and 3 B-ball titles? Is winning a High School State championship like winning MA3 or MA4 in an A-tier?

While winning something called the World Title in any sport should probably be reserved for only the top open pro level, and really have competitors from around the world, not primarily the U.S., there's certainly a place for other kinds of championships that bring together the best in some category however you slice it whether by age, gender, country, Pro/Am (suspect), league level and even ratings.

Winning a competition for the Red level title, and repeating, is more of an accomplishment than most of the other slices because everyone in that competition is verified to be at your skill level that year, presuming no one below red level is allowed to enter that division. And if limited to age 40+, there are likely few if any phenoms quickly rocketing up the skill ladder on their way to white, blue and beyond. And fully agree there's no need to call it a World title, just a Championship moniker of some sort.
Age- and gender-protected divisions in disc golf recognize inherent biological handicaps in those groups. (The Pro/Am split is a little iffier, being essentially an elective status.)

College football divisions recognize inherent handicaps in the size of schools, and thus ability to compete with larger, better-funded ones. High schools recognize the handicaps of age, and lack of recruiting. Within high schools, there are division championships based on school sizes.

These are all "the best of..." a group that is otherwise limited, in some way.

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  #87  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Age- and gender-protected divisions in disc golf recognize inherent biological handicaps in those groups. (The Pro/Am split is a little iffier, being essentially an elective status.)

College football divisions recognize inherent handicaps in the size of schools, and thus ability to compete with larger, better-funded ones. High schools recognize the handicaps of age, and lack of recruiting. Within high schools, there are division championships based on school sizes.

These are all "the best of..." a group that is otherwise limited, in some way.
These slices are still blunt instruments in terms of getting players/teams in the same skill range competing versus some form of ratings that's more precise if still not perfect. Even the open divisions in colleges and high schools do not provide an even playing field due to recruiting and facilities disparities.
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Old 08-08-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
??

I don't want to sound like Sonicguy but being serious enough to want to compete in a National or World level championship years in a row and being stagnant at a Red level rating? 825? Especially under 50... that would take effort to stay that low.

In my experience there are many 40+ guys starting to pickup the sport. Athletic people looking to play a relaxing game and also compete and we start out around the 880 range and within a few tournaments are 915-930 range. PLENTY of 40+ guys "rocketing up the skill ladder".
Anecdotal evidence. Actual stats show the average increase in rating for your first three years as a PDGA propagator is about 30 points at all ages. Again, that's an average for players actively playing sanctioned tournaments/leagues. Considering that color ranges are 50 points wide, very few players will be "rocketing through" especially when the stats also show it's all you can do to hang on to your rating after age 40 once you've peaked. Again, we're talking weekend warriors, not the more serious athletes who can aspire to even blue or gold level when starting after 40. The thing is, they'll start or quickly be playing in those colors, not white, red or green.
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  #89  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Anecdotal evidence. Actual stats show the average increase in rating for your first three years as a PDGA propagator is about 30 points at all ages. Again, that's an average for players actively playing sanctioned tournaments/leagues. Considering that color ranges are 50 points wide, very few players will be "rocketing through" especially when the stats also show it's all you can do to hang on to your rating after age 40 once you've peaked. Again, we're talking weekend warriors, not the more serious athletes who can aspire to even blue or gold level when starting after 40. The thing is, they'll start or quickly be playing in those colors, not white, red or green.
I'm assuming those stats are cumulative, I would like to see what changes might there be looking at smaller increments of time as the sport has boomed the last few years. I guess on one hand I wouldn't be surprised if it were similar since more athletic types could be balanced by more of the fringe "that looks wacky enough for me to try" non-athletes that gravitate toward fringe sports.

I guess in one way I fit those stats going from 880 to 910 my first three years so there is the average 30 point gain on the dot, but at the same time I started over 40 and started at 880 which I felt was horrible.
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  #90  
Old 08-08-2019, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
These slices are still blunt instruments in terms of getting players/teams in the same skill range competing versus some form of ratings that's more precise if still not perfect. Even the open divisions in colleges and high schools do not provide an even playing field due to recruiting and facilities disparities.
I'm not sure parity is the goal, of any of them.

The idea of MP50 is that by age 50, age has taken its toll on everyone. They aren't equal in skill, but they are all subject to that limitation.

In Division II football, all teams are limited by scholarships (and, I assume, other criteria). After that, they're not equal. Same with the high schools; there'll be a division of schools with under 600 attendance, in which every school has a smaller pool of players to draw from---a shared handicap. After that, they're unequal.

Ratings are great for what they do---allowing players of similar skill level to compete with each other.

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