#761  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:33 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by Lazerface View Post
Do you know from experience? I mean, if it's really 80 - 100 feet downhill, distance control should be a non issue, especially with an opportunity to practice. What makes it difficult?
I have played it, but I did not try to lay up. Even though I had no chance of throwing far enough to reach the island. I mean, c'mon, people were watching!

But my experience is irrelevant to what these competitors can or should do. If they decide to lay up, there is an IB point they should aim at to minimize their expected score. That point is toward the far end of safety. More precisely, it is the point where the risk of going OB offsets the higher scores expected from being farther from the basket. So, no matter the skill, there will be risk of going OB if playing perfect strategy.

Or, go out and mark an arc about 80 feet away down a slope with firm ground. Bet money on who can land closest to the line without going over, and you will see some throws go over the line.

What this means is that the expected score from aiming at the optimal lay-up point is not less than the expected score from aiming at the optimal point on the island. (It is nowhere near the targets.)
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  #762  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:45 PM
aredoubles aredoubles is offline
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Originally Posted by Lazerface View Post
So does the 80 foot layup zone off of 17s tee still exist? Do players even practice that as a Plan B, say for windy conditions, or going into the hole on the final round with a 4 stroke lead? It still baffles me that after all these years, we never see this, at least on lead cards.

Did Feldberg do it this year? I guess not as he got a 2 in round 2. He shot 1 down on the hole overall so good for him.

It's almost a guaranteed island hit on that 2nd shot because it opens up and allows for a wide hyzer (left or right) coming in. It's much easier to control speed coming into the green. 4 seems to be worst case scenario there. Is it an ego thing?????
Feldberg laid up in rounds 3 and 4. Both times, he parked the second shot, and tapped in for par.

At least from watching the final round's last six cards, Isaac and Ezra Robinson were the only other guys that chose to lay up. Looking at their scores over the tournament from lay-up plays, via uDisc:

Feldberg
No lay-up Rds 1 and 2
Rd 3 - 3
Rd 4 - 3

Isaac Robinson
No lay-up Rd 1
Rd 2 - 3
Rd 3 - 5
Rd 4 - 4

Ezra Robinson
No lay-up Rds 1 and 2
Rd 3 - 3
Rd 4 - 5

So at least judging by the Robinson's, the lay-up play is no guarantee at all, both of them still took 5s from there.

In one post-tournament interview, Conrad mentioned that he considered it for the final round, but had never practiced before, so decided against it.
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  #763  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:59 PM
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Golden Tuna Golden Tuna is offline
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USDGC is always interesting to me...

I like the test of skill, but dislike the artificial OB. Conversely, I love Maple hill because of the natural OB challenges. The benefit to artificial OB is that you get the stroke, but (generally) get to keep your disc. A god way to illustrate this on camera would be longer grass in the rough, but I get the challenges of such a request.

BTW, if you ever plan to go to Rock Hill, try to plan your trip in conjunction with the USDGC because the course is not worth playing in "regular" layout. My wife still says that is one of the worst courses we've ever played...

In my opinion, mandos should only be used for safety concerns. Otherwise, it's just a bad hole design. The new 3 & 4 are boring in my opinion.

IMO:
Hole 3 could be improved by moving the tee up a bit AND moving the DZ back about 100' from the mando. In my opinion, this scenario urges players to "go for it" off the tee or throw a smarter shot to get in scoring position. If they encounter the DZ, they have to throw a more skilled shot to save Par. May not be as 'emotional' to watch, but is probably more challenging to play...

Hole 4 could be improved by removing 1 set up mandos. Perhaps take the second set out and move the first set back a bit. I really don't see a need for both sets...

Frankly, all the talk from the Duvalls about emotional engagement from the audience is annoying. As a spectator, my opinion is meaningless unless I decide to stop watching. I think disc golf has proven the audience is there, regardless of the tournament, course, players, etc.

So, I would rather see a course designed to challenge the players than for the "emotional engagement of the fans". As a side note, I will watch every second of every (MPO) round at Maple Hill, Idlewild, Smuggs, Northwoods, etc. even if i know the outcome. But, I'll only check out the USDGC, LVC, GBO rounds if I'm bored because the courses just aren't engaging to me.

My opinion would be slightly different if the Gold/Arena course were set up the same way year round and I could go there to test my skills.
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  #764  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:03 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Although small sample size, those lay-ups still produced an average score 4 or less. If you miss the green from the tee half the time, your best scores will likely average 4 with the chance for much higher. I think the issue is the weather varies enough over the span of the event that you can't practice all of the conditions you might face under pressure nor have muscle memory two or three days later if you did practice under the conditions presented in the later rounds.
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  #765  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:43 PM
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notroman notroman is offline
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I had the chance to play USDGC in 2012 and 2013. Whether I ran the green on 17 depended on how confident I felt that day. Usually my attempts at running the green resulted in the red flag. The lay up play for me was just a jump putt off the tee - didn't need to cover more than 80-100 feet in order to get a wide open righty hyzer line to the green.
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  #766  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:48 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is online now
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Originally Posted by Streets View Post
Log out and lose your password.
I am okay, he never liked me from the get go so no big problem what he just said. Even when I was new to the site and making mistakes and he was punishing me for tying to figure out where to post on the site.
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  #767  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:50 PM
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Streets Streets is offline
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I am okay, he never liked me from the get go so no big problem what he just said. Even when I was new to the site and making mistakes and he was punishing me for tying to figure out where to post on the site.
There's making mistakes and then there is just pulling conspiracy theories and misinformation out of your backside and presenting them as fact.

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  #768  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:05 PM
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The Albatross The Albatross is offline
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Watching the coverage from 2001 there were a ton of bird's eye view shots. It's hard to tell, but it looks like they had some kind of movable tower. Why not bring that back? Especially for the weirder OB holes like 9-12.
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  #769  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:12 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Tuna View Post
USDGC is always interesting to me...

In my opinion, mandos should only be used for safety concerns. Otherwise, it's just a bad hole design. The new 3 & 4 are boring in my opinion.

IMO:
Hole 3 could be improved by moving the tee up a bit AND moving the DZ back about 100' from the mando. In my opinion, this scenario urges players to "go for it" off the tee or throw a smarter shot to get in scoring position. If they encounter the DZ, they have to throw a more skilled shot to save Par. May not be as 'emotional' to watch, but is probably more challenging to play...

Hole 4 could be improved by removing 1 set up mandos. Perhaps take the second set out and move the first set back a bit. I really don't see a need for both sets...

My opinion would be slightly different if the Gold/Arena course were set up the same way year round and I could go there to test my skills.

Hole 3 needs the drop zone changed or you will have at least one top player find it easier to navigate the course by going ob on purpose to go to the drop zone. Pin is fine but move it to the left a tad 10-15 feet to make it a little easier to hit the Mando shot.

Hole 4 I agree that the double set of double mando shots is not necessary. I think remove the right mando on the front set then remove the left one on the second set as the hole sort of opens up that way to the left anyhow right after that second set of double Mandatory. This keeps the player needing to do a long skinny shot but not a skinny tunnel shot and the idea I propose still eliminates doing a sky hyzer shot, or makes it doable but very very risky.
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  #770  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:12 PM
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davetherocketguy davetherocketguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Casey 1988 View Post
I am okay, he never liked me from the get go so no big problem what he just said. Even when I was new to the site and making mistakes and he was punishing me for tying to figure out where to post on the site.
You're just going to brush that off as a, "he never liked me" thing? lol...whatever. Regardless of how much Streets likes you or doesn't like you your little conspiracy theory on them rearranging Winthrop OB to make it harder for McBeth just because he left Innova is the single stupidest thing I have ever read on DGCR.

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