#21  
Old 03-21-2020, 10:16 PM
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Consult20 Consult20 is offline
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Originally Posted by peabody View Post
His last post was on 2/21. I do miss his posts.
Hope he is OK.
I agree I hope everything is okay with him as well, and yes his posts are "almost" always very well-thought-out. 😉 Maybe he's just decided to spend more time in the real world and less at the keyboard on this forum. Sometimes I wish there were time out button so some people couldn't sit on here are so many hours a day of their lives. Life is short, get out and live it! 😎
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  #22  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:30 PM
IHearChains IHearChains is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
The proper procedure is to place your mini within 1 meter of the last point in-bounds (or under the disc in the tree) as usual under the OB or two-meter rules (which did not change in this regard). Then, if you choose, tell the rest of your group you are taking optional relief and relocate your lie back along the line of play from the mini.
This is correct. When you relocate the lie, you must mark the new lie too. I made that mistake once in a tourney. Marked 1m from OB as usual, announced I was using the optional relief, and then left the original marker at the 1m spot, assuming that cardmates could use that to eyeball whether my relocated stance was on the line. That was a violation.

To actually execute this properly, you kinda need two minis. But that is not stated in the rules.
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:52 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
The rule is:



It's not clear whether he can move the lie in bounds one meter, before taking optional relief. If he can, then it might be the right play; but I would rule he cannot -- based on the theory that the meter in is, itself, relief.
UH, no. It's clear in QA-OB-04 that you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
Yes....check Rules>Questions and Answers: Out Of Bounds > QA-OB-04:

QA-OB-4: My disc went OB. Can I use the optional relief rule to mark my lie back along the line of play, instead of one meter from OB?
Yes. Optional relief is available for free (without adding a penalty throw) after a throw that results in a penalty throw and that requires placement of a lie (such as OB or above two meters).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
Once you mark you lie...that is the lie. So if you take 1 meter in, that's your lie....you can't then change it. It's 'instead of' not 'in addition to'.
UH, Bill SORRY on that last point. I believe that is incorrect. There is nothing in the rules that say a relocation lie is "locked in" once you mark it, and there is nothing in 803.02 D. or E. that says, "instead of." In fact D. states, "...[the player's] lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie...," strongly implying that you had one lie and now you have another one. What if the player marks incorrectly and his cardmates notice before he throws? Do you say oops, that's a marking violation but you can't correct it because you've already marked and you HAVE to take the penalty? heck no.

What if a player marks 1 meter off of the OB, takes a couple practice pumps, then decides I have a little better angle if I don't take the full meter and moves his mini to only half a meter off the OB? Are you saying he can't, (?) because I've seen that more than a dozen times in my years. Sorry, since there are an infinite number of proper lies after an OB, I believe the player can move his marker on that line as long as other rules (like 30 seconds) aren't violated. When 803.02 D. & E. are taken together, it's clear to me that this can be done at any time.

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  #24  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:01 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
In the olden days (before 2018) you could have marked your lie after OB or above two meters, THEN invoked the Optional Relief rule. You can still do that. The only thing new is that you do not add another penalty when you make that choice in these two particular situations.

The proper procedure is to place your mini within 1 meter of the last point in-bounds (or under the disc in the tree) as usual under the OB or two-meter rules (which did not change in this regard). Then, if you choose, tell the rest of your group you are taking optional relief and relocate your lie back along the line of play from the mini.

(That doesn't mean you can call a violation if someone skips the step about placing the mini on the regular lie first. The rules aren't clear enough about that being required to support making a call.)

Now for the quirky parts:

Yes, if you choose (or are forced) to go to the drop zone after OB, you could then choose to take optional relief back from the DZ without further penalty.

You also get the free optional relief from your previous lie if you choose to re-throw after going OB. But not after taking a two-meter penalty. Because the OB rule lists "previous lie" as an option, but the two-meter rule does not.
So, if you choose to re-throw after a two-meter violation you're under the Abandoned Throw rule, which means the throw that got the two-meter violation never happened.


There are more Easter eggs than Gotcha's in the rules. Read 'em.
I agree that the way the "quirky parts" are written you are 100% correct. I do not think that was RC's intent, however; but maybe I should ask them to clean it up if not, or clarify if it was.
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  #25  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:11 AM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
I agree that the way the "quirky parts" are written you are 100% correct. I do not think that was RC's intent, however; but maybe I should ask them to clean it up if not, or clarify if it was.
It was not exactly intended, but it's not currently seen as a problem that the rules allow the quirks. Even it is was a problem, given that the quirky parts would hardly ever be used, and would always result in a lie farther from the target if used, it probably wouldn't be worth extra wording to rule them out.

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  #26  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:51 PM
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teemkey teemkey is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
The rule is:

Quote:
No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters.
It's not clear whether he can move the lie in bounds one meter, before taking optional relief. If he can, then it might be the right play; but I would rule he cannot -- based on the theory that the meter in is, itself, relief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
Yes....check Rules>Questions and Answers: Out Of Bounds > QA-OB-04:

QA-OB-4: My disc went OB. Can I use the optional relief rule to mark my lie back along the line of play, instead of one meter from OB?
Yes. Optional relief is available for free (without adding a penalty throw) after a throw that results in a penalty throw and that requires placement of a lie (such as OB or above two meters).
Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
UH, no. It's clear in QA-OB-04 that you can.
...
Sorry Aray, I just don't see the clarity you reference. The QA states "instead of" without addressing "in addition to the one meter relief, the player may then apply optional relief" (nor does the QA explicitly say the player cannot apply both forms of relief).

My primary concern is that the two forms of relief use different referents: OB is perpendicular to the line; optional is the line of play. I'm taking a strict view that the player is entitled to only one form of relief in the absence of a clear statement that the player is entitled to all forms (when after using one form, the new lie does not entitle the player to further relief).
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  #27  
Old 03-26-2020, 03:25 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Sorry Aray, I just don't see the clarity you reference. The QA states "instead of" without addressing "in addition to the one meter relief, the player may then apply optional relief" (nor does the QA explicitly say the player cannot apply both forms of relief).

My primary concern is that the two forms of relief use different referents: OB is perpendicular to the line; optional is the line of play. I'm taking a strict view that the player is entitled to only one form of relief in the absence of a clear statement that the player is entitled to all forms (when after using one form, the new lie does not entitle the player to further relief).
teem:

Nah, Ah, ah, ... let's not add something in the rules that's not there.

In your comment above (in red) you seem to be calling the marking of the lie after an OB throw as "relief." It is not that as I read the rules. Perhaps in the common meaning, but clearly not in the rulebook meaning. So I ask you, True or False? -- "806.02 D. DOES NOT label the lie after OB as 'relief'."

I say TRUE. It is not "relief;" it is simply marking a lie. Accordingly, it follows that as long as there is an OB spot (by the design of the hole), there are an infinite number of places within that 1 meter perpendicular that are appropriate, according to the rules and the OB thrower's discretion.

So your conclusion that "a player only gets one form of relief" (makes sense, but I also don't see your rule reference there) is rendered moot. The marking of the lie after an OB throw is just that -- a "...lie designated by placing the marker disc (appropriately)...." It is NOT relief. Therefore, you then can apply 803.02 D -- 1) take optional relief after that lie is marked (it can be done at any time) and also 803.02 E. -- 2) do so without additional penalty since it is following an OB throw.


And additionally, you & Bill F. are taking the QUESTION part of QA-OB-4 as part of the rule. I don't see that. IN QA-OB-4 the ANSWER to the question is what applies, not the question itself. The Answer (verbatim) is:
Yes. Optional relief is available for free (without adding a penalty throw) after a throw that results in a penalty throw and that requires placement of a lie (such as OB or above two meters).[my emphasis]
The fact that the when Questioner asks, he uses the phrase "...instead of..." does not make that part of the rule. The answer certainly does not limit it to solely "instead of." It is the ANSWERS in the Q&A section that are part of the rules.

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  #28  
Old 03-26-2020, 03:33 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Sorry Aray, I just don't see the clarity you reference. The QA states "instead of" without addressing "in addition to the one meter relief, the player may then apply optional relief" (nor does the QA explicitly say the player cannot apply both forms of relief).

My primary concern is that the two forms of relief use different referents: OB is perpendicular to the line; optional is the line of play. I'm taking a strict view that the player is entitled to only one form of relief in the absence of a clear statement that the player is entitled to all forms (when after using one form, the new lie does not entitle the player to further relief).
A few things on this point.

1. If you have gone OB, then the one-metre from the OB line is not any kind of relief. It is simply one of your options for your new lie, along with previous lie, DZ etc. You wouldn't consider the previous lie to be 'relief'?

Quote:
806.02 Out of Bounds
D. A player whose disc is out-of-bounds receives one penalty throw. The player may play the next throw from:
1. The previous lie; or,
2. A lie designated by a marker disc placed on the playing surface at any point on a one-meter line that is perpendicular to the out-of-bounds line at the point where the disc was last in-bounds; or,
If you haven't gone OB but are within 1m - then the 1m could be thought of as relief, as you can't have a supporting point OB.

2. And even if the 1m was deemed to be 'relief', no where in the rules does it say only one
relief is allowed. What is your "strict view' based on? I think you're speaking from 'gut feeling' there rather than the rules.

3. Reiterating my previous post, this rule (803.02.D Relief from Obstacles) is separate from the OB rules, it is not presented as an alternative OB option. As Steve said, a player can ALWAYS take optional relief from ANY lie, the rule says so. All that happens in this case is that you aren't penalised for doing so. Also critical is that 802.02.E uses the phrase " is being taken following a penalty". It is receiving the penalty that triggers this rule. It is not triggered by 'the disc coming to rest OB'.

Quote:
803.02 Relief from Obstacles
D. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.
E. No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters.
4. Yes, the use of "instead" in the Q&A is confusing and possibly misleading. But I feel the relevant rules (803.02 & 806.02) have plenty enough clarity on their own.

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  #29  
Old 03-26-2020, 03:52 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
It was not exactly intended, but it's not currently seen as a problem that the rules allow the quirks. Even it is was a problem, given that the quirky parts would hardly ever be used, and would always result in a lie farther from the target if used, it probably wouldn't be worth extra wording to rule them out.
I can buy that.
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  #30  
Old 03-26-2020, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
teem:

Nah, Ah, ah, ... let's not add something in the rules that's not there.

In your comment above (in red) you seem to be calling the marking of the lie after an OB throw as "relief." It is not that as I read the rules. Perhaps in the common meaning, but clearly not in the rulebook meaning. So I ask you, True or False? -- "806.02 D. DOES NOT label the lie after OB as 'relief'."

I say TRUE. It is not "relief;" it is simply marking a lie. Accordingly, it follows that as long as there is an OB spot (by the design of the hole), there are an infinite number of places within that 1 meter perpendicular that are appropriate, according to the rules and the OB thrower's discretion.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
A few things on this point.

1. If you have gone OB, then the one-metre from the OB line is not any kind of relief. It is simply one of your options for your new lie, along with previous lie, DZ etc. You wouldn't consider the previous lie to be 'relief'?



If you haven't gone OB but are within 1m - then the 1m could be thought of as relief, as you can't have a supporting point OB.
I am calling the one meter rule "relief" because IMO its purpose is to allow the player space to take a legal stance, and due to the player's ability to select the best point within the meter. I'm also considering the TD's option to extend the distance to 2 meters when the OB is marked by a barbed wire fence (and/or other dangers). So, true, I'm using a general application of the word "relief," which may or may not be consistent with the PDGA Rules Committee's use of the word. (I've also heard touring pros and other commentators use "relief" as I do, although I recognize that they are not the PDGA RC ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
So your conclusion that "a player only gets one form of relief" (makes sense, but I also don't see your rule reference there) is rendered moot. The marking of the lie after an OB throw is just that -- a "...lie designated by placing the marker disc (appropriately)...." It is NOT relief. Therefore, you then can apply 803.02 D -- 1) take optional relief after that lie is marked (it can be done at any time) and also 803.02 E. -- 2) do so without additional penalty since it is following an OB throw.


And additionally, you & Bill F. are taking the QUESTION part of QA-OB-4 as part of the rule. I don't see that. IN QA-OB-4 the ANSWER to the question is what applies, not the question itself. The Answer (verbatim) is:
Yes. Optional relief is available for free (without adding a penalty throw) after a throw that results in a penalty throw and that requires placement of a lie (such as OB or above two meters).[my emphasis]
The fact that the when Questioner asks, he uses the phrase "...instead of..." does not make that part of the rule. The answer certainly does not limit it to solely "instead of." It is the ANSWERS in the Q&A section that are part of the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
...
2. And even if the 1m was deemed to be 'relief', no where in the rules does it say only one
relief is allowed. What is your "strict view' based on? I think you're speaking from 'gut feeling' there rather than the rules.

3. Reiterating my previous post, this rule (803.02.D Relief from Obstacles) is separate from the OB rules, it is not presented as an alternative OB option. As Steve said, a player can ALWAYS take optional relief from ANY lie, the rule says so. All that happens in this case is that you aren't penalised for doing so. Also critical is that 802.02.E uses the phrase " is being taken following a penalty". It is receiving the penalty that triggers this rule. It is not triggered by 'the disc coming to rest OB'.
...
What I'm arguing is that after an OB throw the player is presented a menu of options, but can choose only one of those options (1m, DZ, rethrow). It was simpler in the past because simultaneously implementing multiple options was physically impossible.

Let me turn the tables on you: In the case at hand, if the player chooses to move the lie (up to) one meter IB, what makes the resulting lie eligible for a penalty free movement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
...

4. Yes, the use of "instead" in the Q&A is confusing and possibly misleading. But I feel the relevant rules (803.02 & 806.02) have plenty enough clarity on their own.
Two questions:

1) Do you think a player can mark a lie 1m IB, then use the line of play from that mark for optional relief?
2) Do you think the "free" optional relief conforms to 801.02(H)?

Quote:
A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule is played under the rule that results in the most penalty throws; or, among rules that call for an equal number of penalty throws, the rule that was first violated.
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