#31  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:38 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
1) Do you think a player can mark a lie 1m IB, then use the line of play from that mark for optional relief?
Yes

I've already quoted the text of the rules that supports my position. Your turn now. Quote me the actual text of the rules that support your position. Pretty please.
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  #32  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:48 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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deleted....I'll come back to it

Last edited by cheesethin; 03-26-2020 at 06:51 PM.
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  #33  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:34 PM
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teemkey teemkey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Yes

I've already quoted the text of the rules that supports my position. Your turn now. Quote me the actual text of the rules that support your position. Pretty please.
I'd prefer to wait until you answer the second question (since 801.02H is part of my reasoning).
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  #34  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:13 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
What I'm arguing is that after an OB throw the player is presented a menu of options, but can choose only one of those options (1m, DZ, rethrow).
Yes, the player can only choose one of those options for the next lie after OB. And after having made the choice, the player can then invoke a different rule: “803.02 D. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief…”
Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Let me turn the tables on you: In the case at hand, if the player chooses to move the lie (up to) one meter IB, what makes the resulting lie eligible for a penalty free movement?
A special new rule created with the express purpose of making the resulting lie eligible for penalty-free Optional Relief. It's “802.03 E. No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds…”
Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Two questions:

1) Do you think a player can mark a lie 1m IB, then use the line of play from that mark for optional relief?
2) Do you think the "free" optional relief conforms to 801.02(H)?
1) The answer to this is left as an exercise for the student. (Huge hint: see 802.03 D. - especially the first eleven words.)

2) No, it does not. “801.02 H A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule...” does not apply because throwing OB is a separate action from taking optional relief and taking optional relief for the next throw is not part of the throw that went OB.

801.02 H. is not applicable, nor is it needed here. 803.02 D and E cover it all by themselves.

(And now I'll let cheesethin say all that better.)
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  #35  
Old 03-27-2020, 01:31 AM
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teemkey teemkey is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Yes, the player can only choose one of those options for the next lie after OB. And after having made the choice, the player can then invoke a different rule: “803.02 D. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief…”
Fine, if they do not establish a new lie using the 1m rule before moving back on the LOP. However, if they do establish a new lie using 1m, then optional relief should cost a one-throw penalty (IMO).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
A special new rule created with the express purpose of making the resulting lie eligible for penalty-free Optional Relief. It's “802.03 E. No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds…”
Fine, if it is the first lie established. I'm also fine with using the 1m rule, and if it results in a lie which qualifies the player for casual relief, then (of course) there is no penalty imposed. But that's because only one form of relief (e.g. legally moving the lie to a preferred position) was used for each cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
...
2) No, it does not. “801.02 H A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule...” does not apply because throwing OB is a separate action from taking optional relief and taking optional relief for the next throw is not part of the throw that went OB.

801.02 H. is not applicable, nor is it needed here. 803.02 D and E cover it all by themselves.
I think the points of separation between throws is the key. My thoughts *tend* toward considering a throw not completed until the next lie is established (or the player holes out). If the disc comes to rest IB, does it not establish the next lie? If OB, or above 2m, and hence the next lie is not established, the player cannot throw again until the lie is established following the rules of play. (fyi, I read "actions" as whatever the player does that is not a throw).

But maybe that discussion should be in a different thread...

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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
(And now I'll let cheesethin say all that better.)
[/quote]
He's pretty damn eloquent, isn't he?
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  #36  
Old 03-27-2020, 07:49 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
I am calling the one meter rule "relief" because IMO its purpose is to allow the player space to take a legal stance, and due to the player's ability to select the best point within the meter. I'm also considering the TD's option to extend the distance to 2 meters when the OB is marked by a barbed wire fence (and/or other dangers). So, true, I'm using a general application of the word "relief," which may or may not be consistent with the PDGA Rules Committee's use of the word. (I've also heard touring pros and other commentators use "relief" as I do, although I recognize that they are not the PDGA RC ).
1- Just because you "call it" that doesn't make it so in accordance with the rules. If you might allow me, I can see that you are confounding the relief after being inbounds but within 1 meter of OB (close to the line) -- relief which is defined in the rules and which the player IS entitled to in order to get a legal stance (It's called relief in the rules) -- with the marking of a lie after OB, which even if the player chooses to mark from the OB spot is clearly not "relief" under the rules. You just can't make a supposition on your part and call it a rule. So again, without a rule reference to support your position, the entire argument falls apart right there.
2- A TD can make all sorts of relief rules, free and otherwise, that are specific to a course or tournament. Any such TD-specific allowance doesn't supercede the rule book without express written consent of the tour manager.
3-Just because a touring pro or commentator (often the same thing) says something doesn't make it so. Some have a LOT of rules cred, others are shaky. I've heard many pros "say" that the re-throw from the previous lie after OB is available because of optional re-throw or abandoned throw. However, it is now and has always been (as long as I've been playing) part of the OB rule.


Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
What I'm arguing is that after an OB throw the player is presented a menu of options, but can choose only one of those options (1m, DZ, rethrow). It was simpler in the past because simultaneously implementing multiple options was physically impossible.

Let me turn the tables on you: In the case at hand, if the player chooses to move the lie (up to) one meter IB, what makes the resulting lie eligible for a penalty free movement?
1- granted after an OB throw the player gets to choose ONE option. HOWEVER, just because he puts a marker disc down it doesn't "lock in" said choice. Haven't you seen a player, often disgusted with an OB throw, put his marker down quickly like he's going to throw and then have the group say, "hey this hole has a drop zone," or something like that? Or have a player "estimate" his 1-meter from the OB, put down a marker and have the group say, "hey, you've got more room that that; you can take a full meter if you want"? And in either case the player goes to or makes a new mark. The ACT of putting a marker disc down DOES NOT lock in your choice. By your logic in these scenarios the player would be stuck with his first choice -- and that's simply not the case.

2 - three things, and note that I will reference them in the rules.
a) "the lie" only exists at the point and time that the player actually takes a stance in order to make the throw (802.05A). Once a player has marked a lie, he may still legally re-mark or change if he has not thrown, assuming there is a legal way to change (examples include relocation, OB choices, abandoned throw, provisionals). Prior to that the disc has position but not a lie (805.01). The only time the position itself will mark the lie is if the player so chooses to use the previously thrown disc to mark a lie (802.06A).

b) the rule in 803.02D states that a player may take optional relief at any time. There is nothing ambiguous or confusing about the phrase at any time. There is nothing special (yet) about his ability to take optional relief just after an OB throw. I could choose to take optional relief after every throw of the round if I wanted, whether they were inbounds or out-of-bounds. Well, except for hole-outs I guess. So, there is nothing to stop a player from taking optional relief in that scenario; it's clearly not against the rules. If I'm on hole 18 the last day of a tournament with a tricky inbounds lie but with a three-stroke lead, and after seeing how bad that potential lie is gonna make the next throw, there is nothing to stop me from saying, "hey, I am going to pick up from this mark and take a stroke for optional relief and then move back along the line of play according to 803.02D. Nothing at all to stop me from doing so, and in that case it might actually be the smart play. So those two things AND the following answer the question:

c) the rule 803.02E states explicitly, "No penalty throw is added [key word] if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters." No penalty added, meaning clearly that it's not tacked on or stacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Two questions:

1) Do you think a player can mark a lie 1m IB, then use the line of play from that mark for optional relief?
2) Do you think the "free" optional relief conforms to 801.02(H)?
1) YES. I do. If the first mark after OB is somewhere among those infinite number of places within 1 meter of the OB legally, then YES. That is true because as I said above 803.02D applies at any time.

2 YES. I do. 801.02H states that "A throw [key word] or an action [key phrase] that is subject to penalty under more than one rule is played under the rule that results in the most penalty throws; or...."

This scenario is neither a throw subject to multiple penalties or an action subject to multiple penalties. What they are talking about in 802.01H for "throws" for example are things like, a player throws has a called and validated foot fault, then that same throw actually misses the mandatory AND lands in the hazard -- something like that. Or a player foot faults on the throw (called & seconded), misses the mandatory, and is later found to have misplayed the hole on that same throw. One throw subject to multiple penalties ON THAT THROW. Or what they are talking about for actions, it's things like intentionally interfering with another player's throw AND unsportsmanlike conduct in the same action. The scenario/example I go back to there, is a player who missed his 10-foot "tap-in" and was so upset/disgusted that he ignored that he wasn't out and grabbed and shook the basket in disgust as another player was tapping out and the other player's disc fell out of the basket. Not saying it happened on film once, but.... In those cases they are ONE throw or ONE action that in and of itself is subject to penalty more than one place in the rule book. In those cases they get the ONE violation with the most penalty throws attached to it. This isn't that. a) you can't make the optional relief after an OB throw subject to penalty at all under 803.02E, and b) even it was, the out-of-bounds in 806.02D is only subject to a one-throw penalty, and optional relief in 803.02D is only subject to a one-throw penalty. So either way you slice it, it's only a one-throw penalty.
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  #37  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:31 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
I'd prefer to wait until you answer the second question (since 801.02H is part of my reasoning).
Ok. 801.02.H is not applicable or relevant in this situation. Steve covered this perfectly in his reply.

Now will you quote me the actual text of the rules that support your position.
Pretty pretty please.
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  #38  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:38 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
(And now I'll let cheesethin say all that better.)
Thank you. And to return the compliment, you and JC have been my role models, for both clarity of insight and clarity of expression, on this forum.
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  #39  
Old 03-27-2020, 04:18 PM
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teemkey teemkey is offline
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802.01
Quote:
A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.
802.06C
Quote:
When the thrown disc is not on the in-bounds playing surface, or when the lie is to be moved by rule, the player marks the lie by placing a mini marker disc in accordance with the applicable rule.
806.02D&F
Quote:
D. A player whose disc is out-of-bounds receives one penalty throw. The player may play the next throw from:

1. The previous lie; or,

2. A lie designated by a marker disc placed on the playing surface at any point on a one-meter line that is perpendicular to the out-of-bounds line at the point where the disc was last in-bounds; or,

3. If a perpendicular lie as described above is not available, a lie designated by a marker disc placed on the playing surface at the point that is nearest to where the disc was last in-bounds, and that is up to one meter away from any out-of-bounds area.

The above options for an out-of-bounds area may be limited by the Director only with prior approval from the PDGA Tour Manager.

At the Director's discretion, the player may additionally choose to play the next throw from:

4. Within the designated drop zone; or,

5. A lie designated by a marker disc placed on the playing surface at any point on a one-meter line that is perpendicular to the out-of-bounds line at the point that is nearest to the position of the disc.
F. The out-of-bounds line extends a vertical plane. When marking within one meter of the out-of-bounds line, the one-meter relief may be taken from any point up or down on the vertical plane.
803.02D&E
Quote:
D. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.

E. No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters.
Two things disturb me if a player can mark the lie on the 1m line *and* take optional relief from that lie without a penalty.

1) 806.02D enumerates the rules used to determine the lie after an OB. The wording ("or") indicates only one of the rules may be used. 802.06C also uses the singular "the applicable rule." Though not mentioned in the list of 806.02D, I am arguing that 803.02E is another rule that may be used by the player; but like the others must be the only rule applied.

2) 803.02E is poorly worded, in that "following a penalty" is unbounded. For example, if I throw OB on hole 4, do I get free optional relief for the rest of the round? That's not reasonable. I would bind the phrase to once the the next lie is established by rule, which allows using the rules as in my point 1, above.
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  #40  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:14 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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806.02D also doesn't mention that the player can finish the hole by making another throw from where they marked the lie. Does it really need to? Or can the player move on to another rule after complying with 806.02D?

The rules would grow huge if every rule had to list everything that happens for the rest of the round for all possible outcomes AFTER that rule is complied with.
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