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Old 11-08-2019, 10:48 AM
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I'm in the same boat as you superwookie, I've watched almost of all sw22 and hubs videos and read their posts. I keep trying, and never quite get it right. I think my hip mobility could be part of my problem, but my brain just doesn't seem to understand the process. Which is weird as somebody who used to be a good athlete in several sports growing up. I think I've just been strong arming things my whole life...
Yeah. It's crazy frustrating man. I wouldn't be so frustrated if I had limited or no athletic ability. If I had always struggled to pick up sports and play them at a high level. But I don't. I've always been very good at all sports I play. And it sounds like it's the same for you. And THAT is what makes this INSANELY frustrating. I feel like I should be much much farther along by now, and the fact that I can't figure out the MAGIC that makes this disc fly is just killing me! I literally can't sleep a lot of nights, because I can't stop thinking about form, and little adjustments, and wanting to go out and try it right away to see if it's THE MAGIC. But nothing is working.

And you're correct, I'm sure we are using far too much upper body and torso to try and throw the disc, as well as spinning too much, instead of using the MAGIC to sling it. But I can't figure out for the life of me HOW to perform that magic and not a single thing I've read has lead to it. Which is even more frustrating as I know ALL these people trying to help can throw far with ease, and their instructions are great. I'm almost positive if I had a day to practice with SW22, HUB, ZJ1002, Blake, etc etc, they'd be able to instantly identify the few things I'm NOT doing correctly and get me throwing in the 400-450' range THAT day! I just know it. But that isn't going to happen as nobody like that lives anywhere near me, haha.

The funniest most cruel thing about all of this, is that a LOT of people that play disc golf, and eventually learn how to throw far with ease, all say the same thing. "SW22's or HUB's articles and videos made no sense before I figured it out. Then once I finally figured it out, all their videos and articles made sense" How cruel and ironic huh?!?! Hahaha

So we just have to keep on working hard, reading as much as we can, asking as many questions as we need to, and hope it will eventually start to click.

Good luck to you in your journey. And trust me, the SECOND I figure this out, I will be trying to think of a way to describe it to you and others, just like all the people before me have done. Which will hopefully help someone out.
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  #32  
Old 11-08-2019, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rhatton1 View Post
Get to the same position with a tennis racket (racket will still be lagged back pointing almost away from the target with point of contact with the ball around level with your midriff and not yet happened)

What did you use to get to that position?

I suspect you are doing everything far, far too early in the disc golf swing, you are trying to unleash before you've ever shifted and settled your weight



As always I can't seem to make the damn thing embed so here's a direct link


https://imgur.com/a/jLsiiqs

Rhatton, thank you for this. So looking at those photos, it seems like the way the disc should feel is the same as if I was going to hit a one hand backhand, but with the ball REALLY deep into my stance and almost behind me, and WITH a closed racket? Is that about right? That little diagram sure makes it look like that is the case. And if so, you are correct. I am probably starting the throw and twisting my torso around far too early and not allowing my hand to stay on the outside of the disc long enough. Which I can tell will feel INSANELY foreign and awkward once I start to do it. Like when I first learned about Lag in the golf swing and started practicing it. It was AWKWARD as hell to say the least! It took months of constant practice until I could do it without it feeling super awkward and see the results.

So to answer your question, to get my tennis racket into that same position, it's a combonation of my lower body and arm/shoulder that gets the racket to just behind the ball, ready to unload. I don't think about it, it just happens and I would have to actively practice that motion and REALLY think about what body parts and motions specifically get me there. But just going off the top of my head, it's a slow turning of my upper body to turn away from the ball, then gradually increasing speed from slow to medium to UNLEASHING. Mostly upper body and core is what hits the ball so hard, along with using the momentum of gravity to get the racket moving forward from behind me. But I'm in NO hurry to get to the ball. Some lower body and hips are used, but I'd say it's slightly more core, shoulders and arm to actually hit the ball. And you can always flick your wrist a little at the end of you're off a little or the ball is behind you

So this brings up another question of hip turn. I've been watching a LOT of videos about how important hip mobility and strength is in most sports. And it makes me wonder if I'm concentrating FAR too much on my torso, shoulders, arm to throw the disc, instead of trying to use a sharp violently quick hip turn to get my upper body moving. THEN adding the arm chop as the disc gets near the chest? Because I can tell you right now, I do not actively try and use my hips when throwing the disc. But when I play golf, they are more involved, same with hockey, tennis and baseball. So is that something I should be working on? Getting my hips WAY more involved and using them to start a chain reaction in my body?

So would it be: plant lead foot, then hips turn and quickly unload and clear, which causes the torso/disc/arm to get pulled forward (but passively, not actively pulling yet), then once the disc is at chest area, unload with your arm? Because I don't do that right now. My hips are not actively doing much of anything. But after watching all of these videos of other atheletes using hip mobility and strength to increase their distance or speed of whatever it is they're doing, it seems like I SHOULD be actively using my hips to really help generate a lot of the initial speed? And ONLY after the disc has been brought into the chest region WITH my elbow out in front should I then be adding in my shoulder turn and arm?
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  #33  
Old 11-08-2019, 04:48 PM
deyo7 deyo7 is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
Rhatton, thank you for this. So looking at those photos, it seems like the way the disc should feel is the same as if I was going to hit a one hand backhand, but with the ball REALLY deep into my stance and almost behind me, and WITH a closed racket? Is that about right? That little diagram sure makes it look like that is the case. And if so, you are correct. I am probably starting the throw and twisting my torso around far too early and not allowing my hand to stay on the outside of the disc long enough. Which I can tell will feel INSANELY foreign and awkward once I start to do it. Like when I first learned about Lag in the golf swing and started practicing it. It was AWKWARD as hell to say the least! It took months of constant practice until I could do it without it feeling super awkward and see the results.

So to answer your question, to get my tennis racket into that same position, it's a combonation of my lower body and arm/shoulder that gets the racket to just behind the ball, ready to unload. I don't think about it, it just happens and I would have to actively practice that motion and REALLY think about what body parts and motions specifically get me there. But just going off the top of my head, it's a slow turning of my upper body to turn away from the ball, then gradually increasing speed from slow to medium to UNLEASHING. Mostly upper body and core is what hits the ball so hard, along with using the momentum of gravity to get the racket moving forward from behind me. But I'm in NO hurry to get to the ball. Some lower body and hips are used, but I'd say it's slightly more core, shoulders and arm to actually hit the ball. And you can always flick your wrist a little at the end of you're off a little or the ball is behind you

So this brings up another question of hip turn. I've been watching a LOT of videos about how important hip mobility and strength is in most sports. And it makes me wonder if I'm concentrating FAR too much on my torso, shoulders, arm to throw the disc, instead of trying to use a sharp violently quick hip turn to get my upper body moving. THEN adding the arm chop as the disc gets near the chest? Because I can tell you right now, I do not actively try and use my hips when throwing the disc. But when I play golf, they are more involved, same with hockey, tennis and baseball. So is that something I should be working on? Getting my hips WAY more involved and using them to start a chain reaction in my body?

So would it be: plant lead foot, then hips turn and quickly unload and clear, which causes the torso/disc/arm to get pulled forward (but passively, not actively pulling yet), then once the disc is at chest area, unload with your arm? Because I don't do that right now. My hips are not actively doing much of anything. But after watching all of these videos of other atheletes using hip mobility and strength to increase their distance or speed of whatever it is they're doing, it seems like I SHOULD be actively using my hips to really help generate a lot of the initial speed? And ONLY after the disc has been brought into the chest region WITH my elbow out in front should I then be adding in my shoulder turn and arm?
I don't think violently would be the word I'd use but yes, get your legs involved through clearing of the hips. Watch and work through these videos. If you don't work through them, try it out in the field, then revisit them it won't matter. You have to go through that pain and suffering, typically, before the light bulb kicks in. Start with that then you can think about anything in regards to the arm. You don't really want to think about karate chopping with the arm at the elbow because then you're using a short lever, you know what I mean? Your whole arm is the lever and don't worry about any bend in the arm or anything arm related for right now. Just trip to figure out the balance and movement of the below vids.



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  #34  
Old 11-08-2019, 05:00 PM
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I used to try and really rotate the hips fast and violent and that just led to spinning out of leverage and back pain. What helped me was the idea of shifting from behind and bracing and getting upright balanced on the front leg to the finish.


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  #35  
Old 11-11-2019, 10:03 AM
RocHucker RocHucker is offline
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Another one-handed backhand tennis player (currently plateaued at ~380' of disc golf distance) here with some questions to further dig into the feeling of the disc lag.

1) From my unenlightened perspective, responses in these discussions sometimes seem to blur the line between the lag of the forearm behind the elbow and the lag of the disc behind the hand/wrist... which should I be focusing on: forearm lag, disc lag, or both? If both, what is the timing of it?
1a) Do they both coil into lag at the same time (at what I understand to be the "power pocket" or the right pec area associated with the Beto drill) and then whip open like your arm is the string wrapped around a dreidel? In this case, the inertia of the disc coming forward from the reach-back is causing it to coil deeper into the power pocket at the same time that the forearm is sinking into maximum lag behind the elbow.
1b) Or does the forearm lag behind the elbow first (this being what I understand as the power pocket), and then, as your forearm is releasing outwards from the power pocket, the inertia of the disc causes it to lag back behind the wrist before whipping around at the hit? In this case, the disc is not at maximum lag behind the wrist until after the forearm has already started un-lagging from behind the elbow.
1c) If neither 1a nor 1b sound close enough to the truth to be instructive for me, then hopefully there's a more accurate way to describe the correct feeling with similar language?

I was out in the field this morning testing out 1a) vs 1b) and I started to try to focus on getting the disc to reach maximum lag behind my wrist as late as possible in the swing; even later than my racquet would lag behind my hand during a one-handed tennis backhand (the thought being that the disc golf disc, being a shorter lever arm than the tennis racquet, should get a quicker angular acceleration over a shorter period of time). This resulted in the disc lagging back and hitting my forearm during what I've previously thought of as the final acceleration of the throw as my elbow unhinges and my forearm extends out away from my body. Then, as the final hinge between the disc and my hand/wrist opened, the disc felt REALLY heavy. Heavy to the point where it was almost painful in my fingertips and the disc ripped right out of my hand. I wasn't able to get any increased distance yet, but I do feel like I'm getting the same distance out of less body effort, and I've read several times on dgcr that the disc should feel heavy, so...

2) Does the above feeling sound correct and like something that I should latch onto, or is it just another interesting feeling but wrong way of throwing that I've discovered on my technique journey? To summarize: During the acceleration of the forearm, the disc lags back to the point that it hits my forearm. Then, the disc very suddenly feels extremely heavy as it "un-lags" (later and over a shorter period of time than my tennis racquet would) and rips out of my hand... is this correct?

As always, thanks so much to the knowledgeable and selfless people who spend their time responding to hapless fools like me!
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  #36  
Old 11-11-2019, 02:37 PM
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I don't think it really matters the order in which the joints lag. Different people will have different takes on this but be equally successful. The important part is the sequencing moving forward, after the lag has happened. Sounds like you are on the right track.
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  #37  
Old 11-12-2019, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RocHucker View Post
Another one-handed backhand tennis player (currently plateaued at ~380' of disc golf distance) here with some questions to further dig into the feeling of the disc lag.

1) From my unenlightened perspective, responses in these discussions sometimes seem to blur the line between the lag of the forearm behind the elbow and the lag of the disc behind the hand/wrist... which should I be focusing on: forearm lag, disc lag, or both? If both, what is the timing of it?
1a) Do they both coil into lag at the same time (at what I understand to be the "power pocket" or the right pec area associated with the Beto drill) and then whip open like your arm is the string wrapped around a dreidel? In this case, the inertia of the disc coming forward from the reach-back is causing it to coil deeper into the power pocket at the same time that the forearm is sinking into maximum lag behind the elbow.
1b) Or does the forearm lag behind the elbow first (this being what I understand as the power pocket), and then, as your forearm is releasing outwards from the power pocket, the inertia of the disc causes it to lag back behind the wrist before whipping around at the hit? In this case, the disc is not at maximum lag behind the wrist until after the forearm has already started un-lagging from behind the elbow.
1c) If neither 1a nor 1b sound close enough to the truth to be instructive for me, then hopefully there's a more accurate way to describe the correct feeling with similar language?

I was out in the field this morning testing out 1a) vs 1b) and I started to try to focus on getting the disc to reach maximum lag behind my wrist as late as possible in the swing; even later than my racquet would lag behind my hand during a one-handed tennis backhand (the thought being that the disc golf disc, being a shorter lever arm than the tennis racquet, should get a quicker angular acceleration over a shorter period of time). This resulted in the disc lagging back and hitting my forearm during what I've previously thought of as the final acceleration of the throw as my elbow unhinges and my forearm extends out away from my body. Then, as the final hinge between the disc and my hand/wrist opened, the disc felt REALLY heavy. Heavy to the point where it was almost painful in my fingertips and the disc ripped right out of my hand. I wasn't able to get any increased distance yet, but I do feel like I'm getting the same distance out of less body effort, and I've read several times on dgcr that the disc should feel heavy, so...

2) Does the above feeling sound correct and like something that I should latch onto, or is it just another interesting feeling but wrong way of throwing that I've discovered on my technique journey? To summarize: During the acceleration of the forearm, the disc lags back to the point that it hits my forearm. Then, the disc very suddenly feels extremely heavy as it "un-lags" (later and over a shorter period of time than my tennis racquet would) and rips out of my hand... is this correct?

As always, thanks so much to the knowledgeable and selfless people who spend their time responding to hapless fools like me!
1. I think technically there is lag between every joint from the ground up kinematic chain sequence. The wrist wags behind the lead of the elbow and shoulder and leg.

2. I think you need to load your wrist against the lag like a spring or sling shot, like a 1" punch/spring of wrist. Tighter spring/wrist can load and unload more force and force dissipates over distance so less travel is more efficient. Lots of top throwers will say to almost lock the wrist straight, the wrist will bend/lag the acceleration.

The more you swing inside-out the more lag you create via angles/arcs.
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:30 PM
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I don't think violently would be the word I'd use but yes, get your legs involved through clearing of the hips. Watch and work through these videos. If you don't work through them, try it out in the field, then revisit them it won't matter. You have to go through that pain and suffering, typically, before the light bulb kicks in. Start with that then you can think about anything in regards to the arm. You don't really want to think about karate chopping with the arm at the elbow because then you're using a short lever, you know what I mean? Your whole arm is the lever and don't worry about any bend in the arm or anything arm related for right now. Just trip to figure out the balance and movement of the below vids.
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I used to try and really rotate the hips fast and violent and that just led to spinning out of leverage and back pain. What helped me was the idea of shifting from behind and bracing and getting upright balanced on the front leg to the finish.
So as it is, I do use my legs, hips, etc. Just not actively TRYING to use them. So they do work, because of experience with basically every sport. So my legs, hips, and other body parts get involved without me even having to think. But the question is HOW much should my hips be involved I guess is the better question.

And it seems like from your answer and SW's, that they should be involved, but not too much? And not as much as I'm thinking?

Which confuses me. Because you guys just referenced videos of golfers showing how to clear the hips in a very fast upward and out/away motion to help the clubhead gain even more speed. So that would mean, that in disc golf, firing your hips fast and back/out of the way would help pull the disc and arm faster into the chest and through the hit? But then you say: "I don't think violently" or "I used to try and really rotate the hips fast and violent and that just led to spinning out of leverage." So which one is it? And why are you guys referencing videos talking about clearing the hips in a fast quick manner to add clubhead speed? It would seem to me, you are referencing them to show how clearing the hips powerfully and quickly can add distance to not only your golf shots, but also your disc golf shots? Just trying to get clarification so I can follow along and know what is important and what is more in the background.

Which once again brings me back to HOW and WHAT is causing so much force to be delivered to the disc? It's not my torso, it's not my shoulder, it's not my arm, it's not my hips. So what exactly would you say are the top 3 most important things that generate the most power in Disc golf? Because I can name them quickly for you in golf, tennis, baseball, lacrosse and hockey. Sure, there are a combination of many things going on to cause the body to hit the ball so hard/far. But in all of them, there are always just a few key things that really are the main drivers to produce speed and or power to throw or hit the ball far/fast.



Thanks
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I used to try and really rotate the hips fast and violent and that just led to spinning out of leverage and back pain. What helped me was the idea of shifting from behind and bracing and getting upright balanced on the front leg to the finish.


So what if I'm getting my weight forward, all on the front leg, then the disc gets slung out, and I'm still getting the same distances as before? What would that mean to you? What is not happening here? I'm not saying I'm perfect, but the timing is pretty close to good, and all the motions and weight transfers are happening. My elbow is getting forward with the disc near the middle of my chest, my wrist is firm and springy, my grip is firm (not tight, but not super loose), I'm getting a release farther out in front of me than I used too and I squeeze the disc hard near the end. And yet nothing is changing in terms of distance or consistency. Still just not feeling any heavy discs, no pop, still not feeling like the disc is booming out of my hands, nothing. Everything feels about the same. The only thing that has got better overall is my balance, weight shift, and timing. But none of that is adding any distance or consistency. There's some shots where I'm all the way on my plant leg and my back leg gets up high and around a la Drew Gibson with a good release out in front. And still, the disc goes about the same distance

So I was thinking "maybe I'm not getting my hips involved ENOUGH". They are involved, just not enough maybe? And it sounds like they shouldn't be used with a lot of force. And yet you're saying being braced and coming from behind is very important. But I'm already doing that now. So no idea WHY I'm not throwing farther. Plus, with the season wrapping up, practice and videos are not going to be happening for quite some time. So I'm not even sure it's worth my time to try and get into this until next spring?

Thanks again for trying to help. I really appreciate all the effort. I hope this clicks someday for me, haha
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:32 PM
deyo7 deyo7 is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
So as it is, I do use my legs, hips, etc. Just not actively TRYING to use them. So they do work, because of experience with basically every sport. So my legs, hips, and other body parts get involved without me even having to think. But the question is HOW much should my hips be involved I guess is the better question.

And it seems like from your answer and SW's, that they should be involved, but not too much? And not as much as I'm thinking?

Which confuses me. Because you guys just referenced videos of golfers showing how to clear the hips in a very fast upward and out/away motion to help the clubhead gain even more speed. So that would mean, that in disc golf, firing your hips fast and back/out of the way would help pull the disc and arm faster into the chest and through the hit? But then you say: "I don't think violently" or "I used to try and really rotate the hips fast and violent and that just led to spinning out of leverage." So which one is it? And why are you guys referencing videos talking about clearing the hips in a fast quick manner to add clubhead speed? It would seem to me, you are referencing them to show how clearing the hips powerfully and quickly can add distance to not only your golf shots, but also your disc golf shots? Just trying to get clarification so I can follow along and know what is important and what is more in the background.

Which once again brings me back to HOW and WHAT is causing so much force to be delivered to the disc? It's not my torso, it's not my shoulder, it's not my arm, it's not my hips. So what exactly would you say are the top 3 most important things that generate the most power in Disc golf? Because I can name them quickly for you in golf, tennis, baseball, lacrosse and hockey. Sure, there are a combination of many things going on to cause the body to hit the ball so hard/far. But in all of them, there are always just a few key things that really are the main drivers to produce speed and or power to throw or hit the ball far/fast.



Thanks
A quick answer. Legs are very involved just not how most people intuitively think about it. It could be semantics and you might understand already with regards to legs and clearing of hips. It's just that when I hear violently turn or throw hips I instinctively think people are thinking rotation since that's how I and most ams might think at beginning. The fast rotation is usually a shifting in front thing instead of "the move" shifting from behind, leading with your butt thing.

Most important things? I'm still learning but I'd say balance and shifting from behind. This also enables you to post on front leg correctly and thereby clear hips. It's all connected.
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