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View Poll Results: Should the PDGA allow opting out of player packs?
Yes 24 48.98%
No 25 51.02%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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  #111  
Old 12-07-2019, 07:53 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Trying a. would answer the question of which is preferable.
Trying b. or c. would just be proceeding with speculation. It would be nothing more than doubling the current guesswork involved in one event.

Unless an area (or course) has a sufficient pool of players to fill events, under either formula.
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  #112  
Old 12-07-2019, 08:51 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
And, always lost, but the most important point of all of this - David touched on it a few times - many players do not consider the organized event itself of any monetary value at all. IMO, that is what needs to change regardless of Tier, Investment/Payout and locale.
How does this change if all TD's do is perpetuate the current system?

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  #113  
Old 12-07-2019, 01:06 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Trying a. would answer the question of which is preferable.
Trying b. or c. would just be proceeding with speculation. It would be nothing more than doubling the current guesswork involved in one event.

Unless an area (or course) has a sufficient pool of players to fill events, under either formula.
My point was that perhaps there are players who would only do no-players-pack, while others would only do players-pack. Maybe 40% want no-pack and 60% want a players pack. If we start offering ONLY players pack events (because that is what is more popular) we would miss the other 40% of potential players.

We should not limit all events to "THE ONE" best style. Tight standards to make every event the "best kind" of event is not the way to maximize total attendance at all events. TDs should be able to sanction almost any kind of event.

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  #114  
Old 12-07-2019, 03:43 PM
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Nova P Nova P is offline
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Call me crazy, but sometimes I want to opt in to the player's pack. I play pro divisions, so generally we get zilch (or maybe a mini, yay!), and sometimes I go to a tourney and the player's pack disc just happens to be a mold I really like, with a neat stamp, and I'd love to have the option to pay a little extra at registration to get one.

My favorite TD in the whole world makes this an option sometimes, by adding it as a purchase option on the registration page for an extra fee.
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  #115  
Old 12-07-2019, 10:29 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
My point was that perhaps there are players who would only do no-players-pack, while others would only do players-pack. Maybe 40% want no-pack and 60% want a players pack. If we start offering ONLY players pack events (because that is what is more popular) we would miss the other 40% of potential players.

We should not limit all events to "THE ONE" best style. Tight standards to make every event the "best kind" of event is not the way to maximize total attendance at all events. TDs should be able to sanction almost any kind of event.
Yes....but.....a given TD is usually only running one event. He's inclined to run it the way he thinks most players want.

The thought experiment of two events on the same course, with different formulas, was to determine which formula player actually want---that is, whether TDs assumptions are correct.

After that, I'm all in favor of the growth of disc golf, creating a large enough pool of players with difference preferences, that different TDs will run different events, under different formulas. We may be there in some places.

The trick is finding the TDs who will run events that are less popular, to cater to the minority of players who will prefer them.....or to demonstrate that the assumption is wrong, and they'll be attended just as well.

I don't see the thought experiment of 6 events gets there any better than the simpler one, of 2 events.

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  #116  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:38 AM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
How does this change if all TD's do is perpetuate the current system?

Short response:

I do not have the answers to that question and admit I perpetuate the current system. It is a valid point that I should not advocate for change unless I am willing to take the risks myself. Guilty.



Other thoughts:

That was part of my consideration when mentioning course quality. I believe that the place to attempt to change the system starts on courses that players love and are willing to attend regardless of payout structure. Yet, again, who am I to ask others to lead the way and take all the risks.

I have thought maybe the PDGA implementing a standard deduction from entry fees (Well above the current %) that is definitively stated and defined to go to the organizers would help, but that is problematic for many reasons.

I am not confident enough to think the events I TD are decently attended solely due to the possibility that they are well organized and smooth running verse the reward system in place. Maybe, I have become complacent in finding a structure that has resulted in breaking even each year with less financial risk compared to years past.

Oddly enough, I have changed some structural details that I perceive as monumental personally, but show up as quite minute to those who do not know the inner workings of running an event.

Would it be brave and virtuous to enact structural changes against the current grain or negative and destructive in terms of efforts regularly put forth.? Would your opinion that there are plenty of players to fill events regardless of structure hold long term?

Am I a coward or simply being pragmatic to not risk the efforts being put forward to run what are considered relatively successful events at this time?
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  #117  
Old 12-09-2019, 11:37 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
If two PDGA events were offered on the same course - one with "No frills'" + low entry fee and the other "Big Frills'" + standard entry fee - which would be attended at a higher rate?
Could you please define in detail what these frills are and how they might impact registration fees in this situation? Thank you.
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  #118  
Old 12-09-2019, 07:47 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Could you please define in detail what these frills are and how they might impact registration fees in this situation? Thank you.
This has all been gone over multiple times in this thread. For simplicity, think of the "Frills'" as the players packs you originally suggested it is time to opt-out of at events. I hope you understand by this point that "Frills'" could include dozens of other things, some optional and others required depending on park, Tier, sponsors or lack there of and so on.

As I stated earlier, one could run a PDGA X-Tier (C-Tier to a degree) with entry fees of $10 per player and no players packs/payouts - in fact it has been done successfully (Read earlier in the thread).

I think what things have boiled down to is should an event be run in such a bare bones way and would players support it consistently.

Also, I believe, we all agree that giving TDs latitude to introduce many varying styles and options on how to run events is a positive.
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  #119  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:51 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
As I stated earlier, one could run a PDGA X-Tier (C-Tier to a degree) with entry fees of $10 per player and no players packs/payouts - in fact it has been done successfully (Read earlier in the thread).
First, X isn't a tier, it's a designation (XC, XB, XA). But why would such an event need to be designated as an X in the first place?
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  #120  
Old 12-26-2019, 09:32 AM
trasf trasf is offline
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Is it really that important to have participation trophy for adults on low tier tournament?
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