#131  
Old 01-27-2022, 10:16 AM
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Brychanus Brychanus is offline
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Originally Posted by navel View Post
One important tip before you try to dingle your throwing arm from the rear / left shoulder:
Some people tend to get confused by this and try to dingle as if the left shoulder were pushed up against a fixed point on a wall. That will be awkward and off-balance. Similar to trying to whip a whip by pinching the handle as far back on the handle as possible.
You need a bit of leverage to be able to swing in a good way. Imagine swinging more from the rear scapula / lats. Think about it as if the are from your left side neck to your left shoulder is the handle of the whip.

Maybe you would have gotten there on your own, but better safe than sorry.
No, this is helpful & everything is appreciated. The off-arm action is so easy to misunderstand. Let me see if I can describe how I currently understand it & that might help identify any other fundamental "swing thought" mistakes I might be making. Sorry this is long but I don't want to reinforce subtly bad mechanics.

When I actually throw, I was having some success getting it to "collect" the hips toward the target using something like the Marc Jarvis style, which also helped sync my upper and lower body a bit. The weight shift kept getting easier too. But while using that style, now I realize I wasn't protracting the shoulders entering the swing, and the elbow has been dragging a little bit rather than helping my rear side/arm lead the swing. I also lost that feeling of rubber-band like tension across my back. So I think that's what SW22 sees in my practice swings above.

This AM I moved back to a "spill the beverage" off-arm position again for some outdoor midrange throws in frigid conditions. My grip sucked but I was able to recover the elastic/protracted shoulders. I also felt like I was able to get a deeper/lower shoulder swing that felt much easier to whip from. Mentally, I tried something new and kept imagining a hockey slapshot to help my body position and timing. The throws that felt most like a slapshot felt more dynamic/elastic/smooth and achieved good distance at lower effort.

So to your rear scapula/lat point and "basing" the whip there, the tension I should feel/swing leverage should feel like a rubber band loading through that rear lat. That loading is also through the posterior oblique sling from the back of my rear shoulder to the back of my leading hip. The shoulder tilt/swing facilitates getting a better angle to dingle and whip the arm from that sling. Fundamentally I need to whip the disc from my CoG/weight shift, which progresses from the weight shift/hips through my rear lat/oblique slings and through the arm.

Is that on track/what's wrong with my thinking?
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  #132  
Old 01-27-2022, 12:38 PM
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Also probably a little rear rhomboid loading in there.
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  #133  
Old 01-28-2022, 03:46 AM
navel navel is offline
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Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
No, this is helpful & everything is appreciated. The off-arm action is so easy to misunderstand. Let me see if I can describe how I currently understand it & that might help identify any other fundamental "swing thought" mistakes I might be making. Sorry this is long but I don't want to reinforce subtly bad mechanics.

When I actually throw, I was having some success getting it to "collect" the hips toward the target using something like the Marc Jarvis style, which also helped sync my upper and lower body a bit. The weight shift kept getting easier too. But while using that style, now I realize I wasn't protracting the shoulders entering the swing, and the elbow has been dragging a little bit rather than helping my rear side/arm lead the swing. I also lost that feeling of rubber-band like tension across my back. So I think that's what SW22 sees in my practice swings above.

This AM I moved back to a "spill the beverage" off-arm position again for some outdoor midrange throws in frigid conditions. My grip sucked but I was able to recover the elastic/protracted shoulders. I also felt like I was able to get a deeper/lower shoulder swing that felt much easier to whip from. Mentally, I tried something new and kept imagining a hockey slapshot to help my body position and timing. The throws that felt most like a slapshot felt more dynamic/elastic/smooth and achieved good distance at lower effort.

So to your rear scapula/lat point and "basing" the whip there, the tension I should feel/swing leverage should feel like a rubber band loading through that rear lat. That loading is also through the posterior oblique sling from the back of my rear shoulder to the back of my leading hip. The shoulder tilt/swing facilitates getting a better angle to dingle and whip the arm from that sling. Fundamentally I need to whip the disc from my CoG/weight shift, which progresses from the weight shift/hips through my rear lat/oblique slings and through the arm.

Is that on track/what's wrong with my thinking?
Sounds about right to me, but I get a little bit lost in the text. You can focus on different feels, whatever works for you, but don't overcomplicate it too much. The point I was trying to make is that the rear shoulder (as an example) can mean the inside, the outside, backside, an area as big as quarter or the whole shoulder area etc.
Focusing on different details in the same feel will vary the result. I think that most people imagine a feel in the end point of a body part and lose all resistance and leveraging as a result. Tell someone to focus on the right hip and they will often times focus on where their pants meet their skin on the outside of their body frame.


Try bowling an imaginary bowling ball with your left arm. In that motion you would naturally let your left arm cross your CoG and make a nice firm base. It will also lead to you having a great patience in the swing and "bowling" up and out towards the target, letting your throwing arm move along for the ride. Try it without a disc too. Thinking about it as an actual bowling motion. Otherwise you might be bowling and falling back away from the lane.
That's another way to feel the off-arm in a combination with other important parts for the swing.

Check out Kristian Kuoksa in this clip, bowling with his off-arm(1.35):
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  #134  
Old 01-28-2022, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navel View Post
...I think that most people imagine a feel in the end point of a body part and lose all resistance and leveraging as a result...

Try bowling an imaginary bowling ball with your left arm. ... Check out Kristian Kuoksa in this clip, bowling with his off-arm
This is great, thank you. It answers my (too detailed) question. It also helps me connect the dots to SW22's "don't spill the beverage" exercise with a glass in each hand. I'll try to adjust my slow indoor swings first to see if I can get the shoulder and rear arm action cleaned up & post it!
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  #135  
Old 02-10-2022, 10:19 AM
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Got another slightly above freezing field day today. Adding a couple notes here in the order of what I will focus on for real throws. I was going maybe 80-85%, so next time I will aim to slow down to ~70% speed - faster than indoor swings but hopefully slow enough that I can train my body to flow better.

1. Weightshift: a clean one leads to a buttery, low effort throw. When I get a smooth 3x right into the right sized drop/squat/crush, the whole sequence unfurls more smoothly and I feel less muscle jerks. It feels so freaking cool. Now that I feel the difference it's even more annoying that I can't do it every time.

2. Backswing: loading a bit lower/back and under so that the disc follows the shoulder is critical. When I do it right I don't feel my shoulder shoot up and the disc follows a better path behind the shoulder. But if I'm too consciously focused on weightshift, I tend to get sloppier in the backswing and compensate by pulling rather than whipping (or whip but smack myself in the chest/hurt my shoulder!), so this is #2. Head needs to follow disc.

3. Off arm: the "spill the beverage" position is going a little better and feels more natural at this point than other positions I've tried. The Marc Jarvis style may tend to cramp me a bit with my body type. I'm still getting some elbow drags esp. when #1 or #2 go wrong, but I'll keep setting the position and hopefully it continues to improve.

4. Arm curl: I can tell that some discs whip through much better than others, seems to be related to the above and how lagged the overall throw is.

5. Wrist: It's definitely less floppy on average but I will need to check how it looks soon.

I'll get a new slow swing drill up shortly to see if the overall flow is improving!

Last edited by Brychanus; 02-10-2022 at 10:23 AM.
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  #136  
Old 02-11-2022, 04:06 PM
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Ok, any drill feedback would be helpful again. I've been most focused on cleaner 3x & weight shift, off arm bowl/don't spill the beverage, and more shoulder tilt in backswing.

Top line/swing path is still a little confusing to me. I'm trying, but not sure if there has been any progress on arm curl, wrist, defined hit point, or shoulder properly leading elbow.

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  #137  
Old 02-11-2022, 06:12 PM
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Keep right foot pointed more targetward on first step and pump the swing up tilting you back and left elbow/hip underneath.

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  #138  
Old 02-13-2022, 10:04 AM
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Filmed new indoor drills this AM. I picked a few of the ones with better foot position for critique. Keeping that first step more perpendicular to target was critical. I feel my hips/core coiling and uncoiling more smoothly/powerfully in the better ones. I'm pumping forward/out when it feels like the natural beat, not sure how it's looking. First one might be best?




Fun anecdotes:
Dangerously, I also tried this on the course in decent weather yesterday before I had a chance to practice it much.

-When I maintained patience in the swing, my 200'-250' shots came out super straight with no torque. I was hitting woods gaps more easily than ever. I barely felt like I was throwing faster than my indoor swing drills. Tweaks up to this point have all reduced effort, but this one seemed to make several things click together at once. Short range shots felt literally effortless.

-Conversely, speeding up for 350'+ shots led to several hilarious unintended towering spike hyzers on the open holes. I was rushing and failed to squat & level out the swing. When I finally settled down I hit one or two nice long, smooth shots. Effort still felt much lower and more like I'm naturally swinging a weight.

-I also played with the "athletic" backswing idea and have added it to indoor drill.

-Shoulder tugs went to 0. I was staring to worry about that. Still feel a tiny bit in my pec, need to make sure I fully stretch that before and during round.
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Old 02-13-2022, 04:40 PM
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Can see how the pendulum is sequenced different, your swing is late. First pic on right, my full pump is achieved before or as left foot leaves ground so disc is as far away from rear foot as possible, swing is at bottom when feet together, top of backswing as front foot plants.
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  #140  
Old 02-14-2022, 10:57 AM
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Oh that's super cool. It's weird that bodies (or at least mine) can find suboptimal pendula at every stage.

The way I was doing it, my weight was actually too ahead of the swing and I was slightly off balanced/getting less force into the disc. The variance in my swings was my body trying to compensate for that.

It took me a bit, but when I adjusted to have pump synced with that first step, the fulcrum is in an ideal position, and the plant/weight shift feels to more naturally lead the swing. If I also keep the rear elbow tight/shoulders protracted as I pump forward, I get an even better powered coil. Will grab a vid when I'm home to see if it looks better.
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