#1  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:09 PM
AnttiM AnttiM is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 15
Niced 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default What is the meaning of 'intentional'?

This happened in a local competition: another player in my group made a throw from a lie established by a thrown disc that later proved to be not his own, but mine. Before anyone noticed the misplay, he had already packed my disc into his bag and moved on. I was just wondering, whether or not the player should have been given two penalty strokes for interference. (We just gave him one for misplay.)

810.E says, A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws: [...] Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H)."

Does 'intentionally' imply that the player is trying to cheat, or has some other malicious intent? Or does an intent to bag a disc that the player honestly, albeit negligently, thought was one of his own, also fulfill the intended criteria for 'intentionality'?
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:14 PM
R-Ogre's Avatar
R-Ogre R-Ogre is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Juneau, AK
Posts: 308
Niced 384 Times in 136 Posts
Default

Depends on what the meaning of the word is, is.

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:59 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 21.9
Courses Played: 150
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,814
Niced 3,682 Times in 1,533 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiM View Post
This happened in a local competition: another player in my group made a throw from a lie established by a thrown disc that later proved to be not his own, but mine. Before anyone noticed the misplay, he had already packed my disc into his bag and moved on. I was just wondering, whether or not the player should have been given two penalty strokes for interference. (We just gave him one for misplay.)

810.E says, A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws: [...] Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H)."

Does 'intentionally' imply that the player is trying to cheat, or has some other malicious intent? Or does an intent to bag a disc that the player honestly, albeit negligently, thought was one of his own, also fulfill the intended criteria for 'intentionality'?
So, if he played from your disc then picked it up and walked away with it, where did you play from?

If he picked up the disc believing it was his own, I don't think that qualifies as intentional interference. It really has nothing to do with having to have malicious or nefarious intent. It has to do with having full knowledge of what one is doing. If he picked the disc up knowing full well it was yours, one could argue he intentionally interfered even if it was an innocent mistake. But since he believed it was his own disc, then I think upon realizing the error, he would just replace the disc where it was so you can play on and he'd take a one-throw penalty for misplaying his own throw.

Now, if he picked up and no one realized it was yours until after the hole or even the round was complete, forcing you to take a lost disc penalty (because if it's in his bag, how else could you proceed?), he'd be penalized two throws for the misplay and you'd get to deduct two throws from your score for the mistaken lost disc call.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:38 PM
AnttiM AnttiM is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 15
Niced 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
So, if he played from your disc then picked it up and walked away with it, where did you play from?
After the misplay had occurred, I walked up to the disc that I had thought was mine, until I got close enough to see that it wasn't. There were four discs in plain sight, and none of them was mine, so I asked if someone had my disc in their bag, and it turned out the other player had it. Then the whole group went back to the place where my disc had supposedly been originally, and we determined a new lie roughly on the same estimated position.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-21-2019, 08:07 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 21.9
Courses Played: 150
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,814
Niced 3,682 Times in 1,533 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiM View Post
After the misplay had occurred, I walked up to the disc that I had thought was mine, until I got close enough to see that it wasn't. There were four discs in plain sight, and none of them was mine, so I asked if someone had my disc in their bag, and it turned out the other player had it. Then the whole group went back to the place where my disc had supposedly been originally, and we determined a new lie roughly on the same estimated position.
Ah, makes sense.

I don't think an interference penalty is warranted on the other player. A misplay penalty for sure, but not interference.

Niced: (3)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-21-2019, 08:59 AM
Motorpro Motorpro is offline
Bogey Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 93
Niced 134 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Intentionally means that they knowingly and on purpose did it. In the case described it was obviously a mistake no intent...no interference penalty.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-21-2019, 01:58 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Courses Played: 16
Posts: 287
Niced 141 Times in 76 Posts
Default

Quote:
810 Interference

E. A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws:

1 Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury); or,

2 Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H).
The bolded part seems to rule out penalising the player. Mistakenly retrieving the wrong disc, should maker them double safe!

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-22-2019, 08:02 AM
AnttiM AnttiM is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 15
Niced 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

So we might draw a conclusion: if something is done mistakenly or absent-mindedly, it is not intentional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Now, if he picked up and no one realized it was yours until after the hole or even the round was complete, forcing you to take a lost disc penalty (because if it's in his bag, how else could you proceed?), he'd be penalized two throws for the misplay and you'd get to deduct two throws from your score for the mistaken lost disc call.
In that hole we had a drop zone for lost discs, so if I had aced it from there, would it have officially counted as a hole-in-one?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-22-2019, 09:31 AM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
Flippy Flopper
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 26.5
Courses Played: 139
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 3,043
Niced 985 Times in 428 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiM View Post
So we might draw a conclusion: if something is done mistakenly or absent-mindedly, it is not intentional.
Intent is extremely hard to prove unless it's deliberate.
Reply With Quote
 

  #10  
Old 08-22-2019, 10:31 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Courses Played: 16
Posts: 287
Niced 141 Times in 76 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
Intent is extremely hard to prove unless it's deliberate.
Isn't all intent deliberate?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anhyzer to roll under intentional OAT? BrotherDave Technique & Strategy 6 04-17-2017 10:37 AM
Intentional misplay or unknowing of the rules? Vonbeezy1 Rules Questions & Discussion 14 02-12-2016 02:47 AM
Intentional Foot Fault esdubya General Disc Golf Chat 195 09-07-2013 11:52 PM
Intentional OAT? jenb Technique & Strategy 35 03-08-2013 12:54 PM
Intentional OAT? dodgeball Technique & Strategy 7 04-06-2011 11:38 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.