#31  
Old 05-14-2021, 01:51 PM
BruisedOoze BruisedOoze is offline
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Been lurking this conversation, and just watched Ricky Wysocki's OTB Open interview and he specifically talks about looking back at his disc to make sure it's on the right angle at reach back and release. Starting at 2:47.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m1tBEjyr20
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  #32  
Old 05-14-2021, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BruisedOoze View Post
just watched Ricky Wysocki's OTB Open interview and he specifically talks about looking back at his disc to make sure it's on the right angle at reach back and release.
I guess that's all you need to do once you've developed a reliable stroke and you know where it is going. I've heard pros talk about being able to see out of the side of their head. I'd love it if someone could share some drills to develop that sort of proprioception.

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Old 05-15-2021, 12:19 PM
BruisedOoze BruisedOoze is offline
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I guess that's all you need to do once you've developed a reliable stroke and you know where it is going. I've heard pros talk about being able to see out of the side of their head. I'd love it if someone could share some drills to develop that sort of proprioception.
Yeah, I kind of lose sense of it visually half way through after the reachout. It's a bit of blur much like a car accident. A bit too analagous for my throw for my liking in general haha
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:30 PM
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Re: Head Down vs. The Tuck vs. Watch the Disc

"Watch the disc" is the best counsel here, but there's a reason why the advice to keep the head down/ looking forward perpendicular to the target line is so popular & persevering: it makes you do some shoulder stuff right.

Now, fire walk with me for a moment here. I'm not sure what the proper kinesiology terms are for shoulder positions, so you'll have to pretend to perform some familiar actions to follow along with me on the body feelings (disclaimer: they might not be the best action analogies as they are off the top of my head). In the backswing, the lead throwing shoulder should feel somewhat "shrugged" while the back shoulder should feel "pinned" back. Then, during the forward swing, the shoulders trade orientations & the back shoulder becomes "shrugged" while the lead shoulder becomes "pinned".

Let me elaborate on the good shoulder feelings (from the perspective of the backswing; just reverse for the forward swing positions): The lead shoulder should lag behind your COG (as SW22 is fond of saying) & your lead lat. To do this, it needs to be in the "shrugged" orientation. Pretend to tie your shoes. Focus on the shoulder feeling. It feels loose and forward. The lead shoulder should feel like this in the backswing.

The back shoulder should feel like the somewhat opposite of this - "pinned" & back. Pretend to open a door/ turn a doorknob. (If your back shoulder is your left shoulder, you will need to turn the knob counter-clockwise in this imaginary exercise; for your right shoulder to feel like this, you would turn the knob clockwise). Focus on the shoulder feeling. There's some tension/ it feels flexed/ like it's trying to rotate outward from your COG. The back shoulder should feel like this in the backswing.

You probably don't perform a lot of actions that position your shoulders in opposite orientations like this. I'd say the shoulders usually mirror one another in this regard. For me, for example, my left shoulder feels flexed outward/ "pinned" / back / etc. (just like the right) when I go to open a door with my right hand even though the left shoulder is not much involved in the action it seems.

Here is the critical point, in my opinion, on how the head down / tuck / etc. swing thought positions you - if you keep your head pointed perpendicular to the target while you rotate your shoulders back and forward, the shoulders must perform this opposite orientation & trading places dance, which they are not used to performing. If you are watching your disc, it is totally possible to, say, have both shoulders flexed or "pinned" improperly for the entirety of the swing (trust me! I've done this; it breaks the lead lat to lead shoulder kinetic chain & oozes power in a bad way).

Grab the doorknob and twist clockwise with your right shoulder & maintain that shoulder feeling; now try to rotate your right shoulder beneath your chin/ across your COG without moving your head. It's impossible. So, if you keep the head oriented straight ahead, your lead shoulder will be forced to be in the shoe-tie position (not the doorknob turn position) in order to rotate away from the target past your head. Get it?

In summary: ideally, you want to watch your disc (watch! not ogle like a fat kid sizing up a Choco Taco salesman on a hot summer day) during your swing, but the trick is to also have your shoulders do the good shoulder things that keeping-your-head-perpendicular-to-the-target-line helps them do.

If anybody has pictures, better analogies, proper kinesiology-ten-dollar words, please serve 'em up.

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Old 07-01-2021, 09:54 PM
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You probably don't perform a lot of actions that position your shoulders in opposite orientations like this.
After spending some time in the Living Room Lab™, I retract this statement - your shoulders perform these motions when you walk! You can feel it. Forgive me Father, for I have sinned.

Still, it's difficult for some reason to get this shoulder feeling right when you are gripping a lightweight object & trying to throw it. I think that this shoulder orientation issue might be the culprit in the debate over the pendulum backswing lead arm feeling (if overly focused on this, can cause too much internal shoulder rotation toward your COG/ tie your shoes shoulder feeling) and the working around the disc lead arm feeling (if overly focused on this, can cause too much lead shoulder external rotation away from COG/ turning the doorknob clockwise). Really, it's both.

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Old 07-01-2021, 10:18 PM
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Re: How the Pros' Appear to Keep Their Head More Perpendicular to Target Line Than Amateurs

(i) The Pros load / get to the top of the backswing position (when they would be appear to be looking backward at their discs) much later and much more briefly in the swing vs amateur players.

(ii) The Pros uniformly have much more stable, centered axes of rotation between the base of the spine and the head vs amateur players, so they do appear to move/ look around less but this shouldn't be mistaken for purposefully keeping the head more perpendicular. There's just less inefficient movement in their swings.

Josh Anthon is an exception, of course, as he appears to watch the disc the whole way. You can see the brief moment his lead shoulder goes from externally rotated/ turning the doorknob as he works his body around the disc to internally rotated/ tying his shoes / lagged behind his lead lat. Same with the JR. GIF posted by SW22 - the lead shoulder lags/ loads in a flash before it starts to come forward and return to the externally rotated/ door knob position.


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Old 07-20-2021, 11:51 AM
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Josh Anthon is an exception, of course, as he appears to watch the disc the whole way.
Yeah, it's odd how often his gifs show up. I tried his style but found it overall counterproductive. It's hard (for me) to keep the disc away and up like that without also being too stiff. And of course that run up is wacky. (Not to mention researching the guy himself, which led to some uncomfortable reading.)

Anyway, I revisited this whole watch vs tuck idea in fieldwork recently. I do think it is related to the oblique sling. I find when I use the "tuck" method that most pros use, as opposed to the full head turn back, my sling is noticeably better. And I can avoid strain by shifting my chin/tilting more (Wysocki is a good example). I wasn't doing that before (remarks earlier in this thread), but it helps a lot. I threw a ton yesterday and feel good (relatively; a better sling has its consequences on a 50+ year old frame).

But to your point: I think there's value in trying to emulate the majority of pros on this rather than go with something more idiosyncratic. A shorter. later backswing and a more stable axis of rotation seem worth pursuing.
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Old 07-20-2021, 07:07 PM
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Yeah, it's odd how often his gifs show up.
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But to your point: I think there's value in trying to emulate the majority of pros on this rather than go with something more idiosyncratic. A shorter. later backswing and a more stable axis of rotation seem worth pursuing.
Anthon's form appears a lot because of how odd it is. For sure heed the wisdom of crowds; but also don't forget the instructive value of outliers. What can examining Anthon's unconventional technique reveal about the underlying power mechanisms of the disc golf throw? In other words, the motions that make Anthon's throw look idiosyncratic are window dressing or fluff or all the stuff that's not peanuts or M&M's in trail mix, right?

So, the real point I'm making above is that analyzing Anthon's form helps to demonstrate what's really important in the "loose arm pendulum" vs. "work around the disc" discussion (which, in my opinion, is no different than the "keep head straight/ down" vs "watch the disc" discussion): it's shoulder orientation.

Stand up and let your arms hang from your shoulders with your hands resting flat against the outside (away from COG) of each leg. Use your shoulders to rotate your thumb outward from your COG so that your palms are facing forward. Or, do your best double thumbs up Fonzi impression because you actually didn't clog your in-laws toilet as you had feared & it went down on the second flush. Focus on the tension/ feeling in the shoulder. This is external shoulder rotation. This is the predominant shoulder feeling when trying to "work around the disc".

Now, rotate your thumbs inward toward your legs/ butt, so that your palms are facing outward away from you. Focus on the loose, forward feeling of the shoulders in this position. To me, it feels like the very beginning of bending down to tie my shoes or touch my toes. This is internal shoulder rotation. This is the predominant shoulder feeling of the "loose arm pendulum".

If you're after easy distance in the disc golf throw, your throwing shoulder should roll from a relative internal rotation position to a relative external rotation position, as described by the exercises above. What Anthon's form teaches is that the internal rotation shoulder position only needs to happen briefly and at the very top of the backswing. This is actually synced to when he picks his thumb off the disc & probably one of the reasons he does it - at that exact moment his throwing shoulder transitions from the external rotation orientation to the internal rotation orientation. Watch again.



So you might try combining your "work around the disc" throw shoulder feeling with your "loose arm" throw shoulder feeling, but only enter the "loose arm" throw shoulder feeling (relative internal rotation) very briefly at the top of the backswing (so as you're shifting pressure/ weight to the front). That's what Anthon accomplishes, & he sequences it with his floating finger. It might be useful to imagine someone grabbing the other end of your disc (aka doorframe drill!), but they only do it at the very top of the backswing. Or do some swings without a disc since gripping something seems to complicate this motion (another reason why Anthon might lift the thumb). Without a disc, it's easy to feel the arm acceleration added with this shoulder orientation sequence.

It's also important not to forget the symmetry of the disc golf throw - if the lead throwing shoulder should go from relative internal rotation at the top of the backswing to relative external rotation during the swing, then the trailing off shoulder must go from relative external rotation at the top of the backswing to relative internal rotation during the swing. Think SW22 swim move or Paul McBeth off-arm pump etc. - how do those motions position the trail shoulder? With the thumb rotated toward the leg/butt and the palm outward away from the COG/ target just like the internal shoulder rotation exercise described above.

Here's one more outlier that might offer some wisdom - Linus Astrom on the right below. He brings his rear arm over his head. Try it. Feel how it forces your trail shoulder to go from the relative external rotation position to the relative internal rotation position (overhand throws like in baseball or football make use of this same shoulder orientation sequence from external to internal to produce power).


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Last edited by SocraDeez; 07-20-2021 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 11:16 AM
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Follow up: when you see other Pros dangle the disc almost vertically at the top of the backswing, this also orients the lead throwing shoulder in an internally rotated position (vs. lifting your thumb off the disc like Anthon). Gurthie really exaggerates this motion:







Yes, the vertical disc dangle has other benefits like (1) helping you to feel the weight of the disc opposite your grip that is ultimately being levered out, and (2) orienting the disc in a way that requires less "swing space" to maneuver it inside of the back trail shoulder close to the COG during the first part of the swing. But the dangle is almost certainly also about positioning properly the throwing shoulder.

One final note: your shoulders perform this sequence of rolling from internal to external to internal to external rotation when you walk forward. Get up and walk around. Focus on how your shoulders feel. Try to relate that to the internal + external rotation exercise feelings from above. Really exaggerate the shoulder motion like you're walking down the runway* and feel the sequence. Think about it's relationship with your ground strikes and leg swings and hip swivels as you use the ground to propel your body forward through space and time.


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Old 07-21-2021, 07:47 PM
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Nick Pacific Nick Pacific is offline
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I've been turning my head in the backswing, to keep both eyes on the disc and follow it into my chest, and to keep my neck comfortable.

But after watching the pros, I noticed no one does this. They all stop their head approximately perpendicular to the line and sort of "tuck" their shoulder under their chin. I'm not sure if they follow the disc into chest with their eyes/peripheral vision, but it doesn't look like it (vision seems to snap forward to target asap).
An overwhelming majority of the big arm guys do turn their head back during their backswing. Some more so than others, but nobody who throws big D is keeping their head from turning past neutral.

Everyone is turning their head somewhat. The really big bombers, like GG, Simon, Eagle all turn their head completely back. Will Schusterick, who had a cannon in his playing days, also did the same and so did David Wiggins.
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