#61  
Old 06-16-2021, 01:53 AM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
The way rules work: there is no rule against it so therefore it is permissible. There does not/cannot be a rule specifically defining the vast majority of things as "OK"- the rule book/comp manual/tour standards would be a mile thick. If it is not proscribed it is permitted.
So this is a "because I said so" rule, with no real backing from the actual rules?

Or, since the player is not a PDGA member I, as a TD, have the right to decide what division they play just "because"?

I do not want an overly complicated or large rule book either, but I believe that a TD dictating what division a non-PDGA member plays is not supported.

An example:

- A non-PDGA member signs up for an event in the MA3 division on DGScene = completely legal and acceptable.

- A TD sees this player at registration and.....?

"You look to be in good shape and tall, therefore you are playing MA1"
"I saw you throw a 400FT warm-up shot, therefore you are playing MPO"
"I want 8 players in MA2 instead of 7, so you are playing MA2"

For me to dictate a paying (Non-PDGA) players' division, I would need a written rule to cite as my reasoning. Citing "there is no rule against it" so I can do it, is not acceptable.

On the other hand, maybe requiring all players to be members to avoid this in its entirety is the better solution.
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  #62  
Old 06-16-2021, 11:20 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
So this is a "because I said so" rule, with no real backing from the actual rules?

Or, since the player is not a PDGA member I, as a TD, have the right to decide what division they play just "because"?

I do not want an overly complicated or large rule book either, but I believe that a TD dictating what division a non-PDGA member plays is not supported.

An example:

- A non-PDGA member signs up for an event in the MA3 division on DGScene = completely legal and acceptable.

- A TD sees this player at registration and.....?

"You look to be in good shape and tall, therefore you are playing MA1"
"I saw you throw a 400FT warm-up shot, therefore you are playing MPO"
"I want 8 players in MA2 instead of 7, so you are playing MA2"

For me to dictate a paying (Non-PDGA) players' division, I would need a written rule to cite as my reasoning. Citing "there is no rule against it" so I can do it, is not acceptable.

On the other hand, maybe requiring all players to be members to avoid this in its entirety is the better solution.
Chains:

You didn't like Chuck's citing of Comp Manual 2.01 A.??
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  #63  
Old 06-24-2021, 09:25 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Chains:

You didn't like Chuck's citing of Comp Manual 2.01 A.??
Not a matter of liking or disliking - I just do not see where a TD can restrict ANY non-PDGA member's division choice.
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  #64  
Old 06-25-2021, 09:02 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
Not a matter of liking or disliking - I just do not see where a TD can restrict ANY non-PDGA member's division choice.
Where do you see that a non-PDGA member is guaranteed a division choice?

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  #65  
Old 06-25-2021, 09:27 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
Not a matter of liking or disliking - I just do not see where a TD can restrict ANY non-PDGA member's division choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Where do you see that a non-PDGA member is guaranteed a division choice?
Chains:

Exactly. The rules, the comp manual, etc. apply to members. A TD doesn’t even have to allow non-members to play. (Comp Manual 1.01 C) He “may” but isn’t required to. “May” is not a guarantee.
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Old 06-25-2021, 09:41 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
The way rules work: there is no rule against it so therefore it is permissible. There does not/cannot be a rule specifically defining the vast majority of things as "OK"- the rule book/comp manual/tour standards would be a mile thick. If it is not proscribed it is permitted.
FYI, biscoe, I am pretty confident that is NOT how rules work. Not these (check with the RC — I have), & not any general rules book. I’ve been a part of some; and the general philosophy is outside of the basic tenets of the game, all exceptions must be specifically allowed within the rules.

Where/how did you come upon that philosophy?
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  #67  
Old 06-25-2021, 12:19 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Chains:

Exactly. The rules, the comp manual, etc. apply to members. A TD doesn’t even have to allow non-members to play. (Comp Manual 1.01 C) He “may” but isn’t required to. “May” is not a guarantee.
Ok - enough with the may or may not.

Fine - a TD can simply not allow PDGA members to play at all - CHECK.

To the point - no one has pointed out where a TD can dictate what division a non-PDGA member can play. <That was my original argument.

If Paul McBeth was NOT a PDGA member, he could play MA3 for the next 5 years and no TD could stop him. (Unless the TD just does not allow ALL non-PDGA members to play, which would be the opposite of welcoming new players to the tournament scene.)

So again, besides a "because I said so" - can someone point out the rules where a TD can CHOOSE a non-PDGA members division for an event?
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  #68  
Old 06-25-2021, 03:13 PM
coupe coupe is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
FYI, biscoe, I am pretty confident that is NOT how rules work. Not these (check with the RC — I have), & not any general rules book. I’ve been a part of some; and the general philosophy is outside of the basic tenets of the game, all exceptions must be specifically allowed within the rules.

Where/how did you come upon that philosophy?
From 801.01.A, which stands firmly in the tradition of Nulla poena sine lege: a principle upon which the entire edifice of Western jurisprudence, as well EVERY moral and legal code that is not exhaustive in its prescriptions and prohibitions, rests.

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  #69  
Old 06-25-2021, 04:54 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
Ok - enough with the may or may not.

Fine - a TD can simply not allow PDGA members to play at all - CHECK.

To the point - no one has pointed out where a TD can dictate what division a non-PDGA member can play. <That was my original argument.

If Paul McBeth was NOT a PDGA member, he could play MA3 for the next 5 years and no TD could stop him. (Unless the TD just does not allow ALL non-PDGA members to play, which would be the opposite of welcoming new players to the tournament scene.)

So again, besides a "because I said so" - can someone point out the rules where a TD can CHOOSE a non-PDGA members division for an event?

It comes down to ... a non-member has no 'standing/rating' with the PDGA and therefore cannot be placed into a division based on their rating. That leaves it up to the TD to determine what their division should be and if they can even play. If they wanted to, a TD could decide that all male non-members have to play in MA1 and that would be their right.

You won't find it in the Competition Rules because they apply to PDGA members (at all times) AND non-members once they are playing in a sanctioned round. So the rules do not apply to non-members UNTIL they are in a tournament that requires them to follow the rules.
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  #70  
Old 06-25-2021, 04:56 PM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
FYI, biscoe, I am pretty confident that is NOT how rules work. Not these (check with the RC — I have), & not any general rules book. I’ve been a part of some; and the general philosophy is outside of the basic tenets of the game, all exceptions must be specifically allowed within the rules.

Where/how did you come upon that philosophy?
See post above by coupe... it is one of the things that keeps the wheels of society turning.

Can you give an example of something illegal in disc golf that is not codified somewhere as illegal?
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