#21  
Old 05-30-2021, 04:02 AM
Improbably Improbably is offline
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Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
Definitly play it from where it lies.

There is nothing in the rules that lets you pick which playing surface you play from.
Wow no.

There is nothing in the rules preventing one from taking their choice of lie, even if those lie are on different playing surfaces.

Assuming OB is not a factor, one may use the disc in it's position as mark, Xor mark the lie. Stressing the Xor.
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  #22  
Old 05-30-2021, 06:42 AM
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My thought is that, the ledge didn't overhang but instead the cliff edge was vertical, there'd be no question that the disc was on a playing surface. The rules give limited relief from dangerous playing surfaces, and this isn't included. So the player would either play it where it lies, or take a penalty stroke to move it back.

I don't see where the overhang, and the layered playing surfaces, would change this -- unless, perhaps, if the overhang were unstable and wouldn't hold a player's weight, and thus a reasonable stance couldn't be taken.

Sidebar: that might be an area the TD should mark for casual relief, to keep players away from the edge.
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Old 05-30-2021, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by XGumbyx View Post

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't see a rule or an example that fits this situation. It would be a pretty easy thing to clear up in the rulebook by adding a rule that states a disc must be played from the surface it Is on, or alternatively a disc can be played from a playing surface directly above or below a lie and the golfer is able to choose. Which brings me to another point, examples say that the golfer has two options as to where they can play their lie from, 20x30 cm behind the disc or 20x30cm behind the marker that marks the disc. Since it's not stated that a player must play from the playing surface they are on, then in the case of a rock overhang and a second playing surface directly below it, a player has three options, the two mentioned above plus a marker placed on the secondary surface directly above/below the lie.
I think that part is already covered -- the rules say you play it where it lies on the playing surface (or behind it) if you can, give you a number of exceptions where you can move the disc, and this isn't one of them. So without the exception, you're limited to where it came to rest on the playing surface.

More generally for this situation, the rules can't be specific enough to cover everything a designer might do, ever odd feature you might find on a course, and every bizarre place that a thrown disc might end up. Sometimes, you have to resort to 801.1A, and work it out as best you can:

These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
If you are able to walk from the ground by the basket to where the disc lies on the overhang, isn't that the same playing surface?
This, to me, seems to be the crux of the issue. I’m guessing this is why arguments about it don’t easily resolve.

Rule 802.5 A:
Quote:
The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw. The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken. A playing surface may exist above or below another playing surface. If it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision is made by the Director or by an Official.
What’s missing there is what defines a discontinuity of the playing surface, making it two separate playing surfaces.

Fro example, if the rock was merely half an inch higher than the ground below it, would anyone even think that marking the front of the disc was against the rules? What if the rock had a small “lip” to it such that it slightly over hung the ground below it (obviously not by much).

Conversely, if a disc somehow ended up with its trailing edge in that space, with its front edge on the ground, would it be illegal to tank a stance on the rock behind the disc? Would you be forced to mark the disc and play from behind the marker in the same way that you would be forced to if it came to rest against a wall behind the basket?

The issue is when does this kind of situation begin to be a discontinuity between the playing surfaces? Is there a hard and fast rule that applies when a TD has not made a specific ruling?
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Old 05-31-2021, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Improbably View Post
Wow no.

There is nothing in the rules preventing one from taking their choice of lie, even if those lie are on different playing surfaces.

Assuming OB is not a factor, one may use the disc in it's position as mark, Xor mark the lie. Stressing the Xor.
I dont know what "Xor" even means, is this some sort of gender neutral language?

So if there is nothing in the rules preventing me from picking my lie, disc golf just got a lot easier. I'll pick my lie to be under the basket, thanks.

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Old 05-31-2021, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
I dont know what "Xor" even means, is this some sort of gender neutral language?

So if there is nothing in the rules preventing me from picking my lie, disc golf just got a lot easier. I'll pick my lie to be under the basket, thanks.
I'm fairly sure Improbably meant that:

a) you can choose to play from the disc that came to rest
b) you can choose to mark the lie and play from mini marker

There is no rule stating you must select option A. The stance taken must simply be a legal one for the option selected. This why players who have a disc land with plastic on either side of the 10 meter circle paint often choose not to mark their lie, so they can step put and/or avoid messing up their C1 stats by marking their lie.

This isn't meant to answer the core question of the original poster, which really is "Is there any issue with marking your lie when doing so would move you to a different playing surface."
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Old 06-02-2021, 04:44 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by XGumbyx View Post
Thanks araytx.

I believe the sections you posted are the relevant ones . 802.06 B, C and D combined state

B) Alternatively, the player may mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play.

C: When the thrown disc is not on the in-bounds playing surface, or when the lie is to be moved by rule, the player marks the lie by placing a mini marker disc in accordance with the applicable rule.

D: Marking the lie in a manner other than described above is a marking violation.

Although I don't really think C comes in to play here.
C only comes into play when the player tries to "logically extrapolate" (nothing in the rules allows that when the rule is covered explicitly) or use "Rule of Fairness" (same).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improbably View Post
Wow no.

There is nothing in the rules preventing one from taking their choice of lie, even if those lie are on different playing surfaces.

Assuming OB is not a factor, one may use the disc in it's position as mark, Xor mark the lie. Stressing the Xor.

The blue and the pink are not in congruence with one another. As you come close to stating (in the pink), the rules PERMIT (explicitly -- different from saying they "don't prevent") the player to choose marking with the thrown disc as it lies OR marking with a mini marker touching the front on the line of play. While it may have that EFFECT, as written the rules do not say you get a "choice of lies". On your part in blue you are trying to extend that permission beyond this specific situation, which the rules have NOT explicitly permitted.


To all:
A thrown disc that comes to rest inbounds and on the ground is NEVER going to be disc above the playing surface or disc below the playing surface. Definitions my friend, definitions. That disc is ON (key word) the playing surface, so "disc above' and "disc below" do not apply there. Not talking suspended in a bush or 2 feet up in the tree, I'm talking inbounds and on the ground.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
This, to me, seems to be the crux of the issue. I’m guessing this is why arguments about it don’t easily resolve.

Rule 802.5 A:


What’s missing there is what defines a discontinuity of the playing surface, making it two separate playing surfaces.

Fro example, if the rock was merely half an inch higher than the ground below it, would anyone even think that marking the front of the disc was against the rules? What if the rock had a small “lip” to it such that it slightly over hung the ground below it (obviously not by much).

Conversely, if a disc somehow ended up with its trailing edge in that space, with its front edge on the ground, would it be illegal to tank a stance on the rock behind the disc? Would you be forced to mark the disc and play from behind the marker in the same way that you would be forced to if it came to rest against a wall behind the basket?

The issue is when does this kind of situation begin to be a discontinuity between the playing surfaces? Is there a hard and fast rule that applies when a TD has not made a specific ruling?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
If you are able to walk from the ground by the basket to where the disc lies on the overhang, isn't that the same playing surface?

If you and Chuck (sorry couldn't tell if you were joking or not there) are gonna claim continuity/discontinuity discrepancy, then why not extend to the entire planet. Isn't EVERYTHING one continuous playing surface using that kind of logic. C'mon men, that's a HUGE stretch in intent, especially since the vast majority wanting that to be legal by the rules are using "disc above or below playing surface" as justification (already implying multiple playing surfaces instead of just one).


And btw, yes, the TD should have previously made the ruling clear before the event. Another topic for another day.

Last edited by araytx; 06-02-2021 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 06-02-2021, 04:54 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
If you and Chuck (sorry couldn't tell if you were joking or not there) are gonna claim continuity/discontinuity discrepancy, then why not extend to the entire planet. Isn't EVERYTHING one continuous playing surface using that kind of logic. C'mon men, that's a HUGE stretch in intent, especially since the vast majority wanting that to be legal by the rules are using "disc above or below playing surface" as justification (already implying multiple playing surfaces instead of just one).
It's real simple. The rules already allow you to mark your lie choosing from two reference points. The forward reference point is in the air above the playing surface. You can mark down below with a mini without penalty as if the disc were lodged in a tree. If you wish to use the back of the disc as your reference, leave the disc there and play from behind it.

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Old 06-02-2021, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
If you and Chuck (sorry couldn't tell if you were joking or not there) are gonna claim continuity/discontinuity discrepancy, then why not extend to the entire planet. Isn't EVERYTHING one continuous playing surface using that kind of logic. C'mon men, that's a HUGE stretch in intent, especially since the vast majority wanting that to be legal by the rules are using "disc above or below playing surface" as justification (already implying multiple playing surfaces instead of just one).
I was not joking. I don’t think there was anything in my post that was in any way non-constructive.

Clearly the rules specifically state that there can be multiple playing surfaces on a course but that any lie exists on a single playing surface. The whole world is not a single playing surface.

I think that they also can be read to imply that the two possible lies defined by the resting place of a disc should be on the same playing surface, although I don’t think they outright state this. The implication is that a disc can only ever come to rest in contact with a single playing surface.

My question is simply, at what point can we decide that a break between two different playing surfaces has occurred? The example I gave was intended to illustrate the idea that some simple principle like “if the front of the disc is not in contact with the playing surface, you cannot mark its lie” doesn’t hold water. The disc came to rest on the playing surface. You can play behind it on that same playing surface, or mark in front of it on that playing surface, even if the disc is elevated, by a sitting on rock, small bump in the ground, etc.

At what point, with what definition, does the vertical space between the edge of the disc and the ground constitute moving from one playing surface to another? What if the rock had a 3” rise? A 6” rise? A foot?

Let’s say we decide that a vertical drop of a foot is too much, and that constitutes a separate playing surface. Imagine laying a curved line of discs starting at the back of the disc in question. Proceed to put down discs, always touching one rim to the other, until you had placed a disc so that the rear of the disc was vertically below the front of the original disc. Each is a legal lie on a single playing surface and we can’t ever say we transitioned from one to the other.

I don’t think the “two playing surfaces” distinction is well spelled out so as to adjudicate these issues.
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  #30  
Old 06-02-2021, 06:27 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
It's real simple. The rules already allow you to mark your lie choosing from two reference points. The forward reference point is in the air above the playing surface. You can mark down below with a mini without penalty as if the disc were lodged in a tree. If you wish to use the back of the disc as your reference, leave the disc there and play from behind it.
But Chuck, which RULE are you using to PERMIT you to mark on the playing surface below.? Show me the nexus from it's-in-the-rules to that mark.

And it can't be "disc above playing surface". That's not the case here.
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