#11  
Old 09-28-2018, 03:40 PM
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Climo's putting was deadly, no new disc technology would change that. He threw 400' or farther with old tech. discs I don't see why that wouldn't improve with the new tech. discs.

He'd be right there with them today.

Of course I could also be completely wrong....except about his putting and distance with the old discs.
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  #12  
Old 09-28-2018, 04:22 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Originally Posted by Countchunkula View Post
I think it's a fun question, but totally hypothetical. Disc technology and depth of talent are big factors. Having a solid forehand game is another. Even if you were to give Climo modern high speed discs at his athletic prime, I don't think he could dominate today's field as a backhand only player. In the 90s, he was able to dominate without a forehand. That simply would not be the case today.
If disc technology had developed to a point that a power forehand had been necessary in the '90s, Climo and ALL the top pros of that era would have developed one.

The thing that is often overlooked in these sorts of comments is that the disc technology of the day didn't lend itself to power forehands. High speed Innova drivers of the '90s: Gazelle - '94; Cheetah - '95; Pegasus - '97; Banshee - '98; Eagle - '99; Teebird - '99. Take away the overstable skip (FH or BH) of today's speed 10+ wide-rimmed drivers and max out overstability at 2-2.5: would any of today's top players have developed their forehands to their current level of proficiency?

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Old 09-28-2018, 04:28 PM
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Great point, with disc technology. Huge difference now. Climo could and still can throw super straight lines with rocs. I see some modern players struggle with mid range control. Courses were shorter then as well, control was super important. Also Climo had superior mental toughness.

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Old 09-28-2018, 04:35 PM
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The approach to this thread is wrong, IMO. Think Chuck Norris. If Climo played today, he would destroy everyone. If you're gonna have a myth guy, and Climo is ours, then embrace it. When I talk to golfers I tell them, Tiger is a weak version of Ken Climo.

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Old 09-28-2018, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by swed View Post
I see some modern players struggle with mid range control.
Because most holes can be attacked with hyzer lines. When things get tight, and going over the top is not an option, the players who have focused on finesse as well as power start to excel.

I think that's why I like watching McBeth. He seems to prefer the straight line Nova approach over the dumping hyzer line.

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Old 09-28-2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
The approach to this thread is wrong, IMO. Think Chuck Norris. If Climo played today, he would destroy everyone. If you're gonna have a myth guy, and Climo is ours, then embrace it. When I talk to golfers I tell them, Tiger is a weak version of Ken Climo.
Wouldn't Climo be Nicklaus and McBeth as Tiger? One set the records. The other tried to break them.

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Old 09-28-2018, 04:51 PM
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I don't think it's just disc technology that precipitated the lack of forehand development (because the existence of players like Scott Stokely kinda belies that logic), it was course design as well. For one, the long, true par 4/5 type holes were few and far between (i.e. 500 foot holes were the "long" ones even for "pro" courses).

For another, my impression of most courses I played in the late 90s was that they were set up with the RHBH primarily in mind. Sure there were holes that turned left to right that could be (and were) classified as "lefty" holes or "forehand" holes, but the vast majority of them were set up in such a way that a RHBH turnover or anhyzer throw would be just as effective, if not more so, than a LHBH or a RHFH. The reverse, in my experience, was not the case. There were many holes that turned right to left that favored a straight RHBH with a fade but did not set up as well for a LHBH/RHFH turnover/anhyzer. Basically holes that turned right to left were tighter and sharper turns than their mirror images, so didn't necessarily encourage or necessitate developing a RHFH.

I think course design has gotten more sophisticated in the last 20 years. Longer holes/courses, of course, but also more design intended to elicit certain types of throws rather than always allowing for a "variety" (read RHBH) to be effective. That's not to say that a primarily RHBH thrower can't be just as successful now as he was 25 years ago. It just means that having a more diverse arsenal of throwing styles makes a player that much more effective anywhere they play. It's why guys like Ricky and Paul and Sexton and Jerm and all these other guys who forehand and backhand effectively have regular success on tour, and the guys who are predominantly one-way players like Feldberg and McCrae (old guys) only seem to excel in certain environments (McCrae has been developing a forehand though).

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Old 09-28-2018, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird888 View Post
Wouldn't Climo be Nicklaus and McBeth as Tiger? One set the records. The other tried to break them.
I buy that, I just like the other approach. It gets the golfers going really well. BTW - I've long thought that the reason the top guys are there is that they do exactly what you've written. To be at the top, you need a subtle game. You've got to be able to make lines not just look for that easy angle. Ken was a master at this. You are correct, IMO, Paul tries to duplicate what Ken did. I've not seen a whole lot of guys do it the same. Eagle might, but even Ricky, a great player, doesn't. He looks for lines, and often enough finds them, but doesn't seem to create throws like Climo did.
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Old 09-28-2018, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Stardoggy View Post
In today's game, Climo=Cale Leiviska.
Cale is developing a Forehand game, now. Also, one of the Smoothest disc throwers, ever, much like Climo. Cale just has the smooth form to go with the smooth release.

Another point of contention, to me, is looking at some of the other "Greats" that are Climo era, but still competeing in the MPO field, because they can. One of my Favorites, EVER, is Barry Schultz. Barry still competes in MPO, fairly often, even though he can compete in Masters, and still holds his own. Currently rated 1031. I bring up Barry because the guy hasn't changed his bag in YEARS, but maybe very Minor changes. I think the most current mold he throws is a Boss, if I am not mistaken. Other than that, he throws mostly DX plastic, and OLD Molds. Not "New" disc technology. Barry aslo has no Forehand game. He still hangs with the big boys and has more finesse than 90% of the MPO field. Climo could do the same, if he chose to, IMO.


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Old 09-28-2018, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I don't think it's just disc technology that precipitated the lack of forehand development (because the existence of players like Scott Stokely kinda belies that logic), it was course design as well. For one, the long, true par 4/5 type holes were few and far between (i.e. 500 foot holes were the "long" ones even for "pro" courses).

For another, my impression of most courses I played in the late 90s was that they were set up with the RHBH primarily in mind. Sure there were holes that turned left to right that could be (and were) classified as "lefty" holes or "forehand" holes, but the vast majority of them were set up in such a way that a RHBH turnover or anhyzer throw would be just as effective, if not more so, than a LHBH or a RHFH. The reverse, in my experience, was not the case. There were many holes that turned right to left that favored a straight RHBH with a fade but did not set up as well for a LHBH/RHFH turnover/anhyzer. Basically holes that turned right to left were tighter and sharper turns than their mirror images, so didn't necessarily encourage or necessitate developing a RHFH.

I think course design has gotten more sophisticated in the last 20 years. Longer holes/courses, of course, but also more design intended to elicit certain types of throws rather than always allowing for a "variety" (read RHBH) to be effective. That's not to say that a primarily RHBH thrower can't be just as successful now as he was 25 years ago. It just means that having a more diverse arsenal of throwing styles makes a player that much more effective anywhere they play. It's why guys like Ricky and Paul and Sexton and Jerm and all these other guys who forehand and backhand effectively have regular success on tour, and the guys who are predominantly one-way players like Feldberg and McCrae (old guys) only seem to excel in certain environments (McCrae has been developing a forehand though).
I think this is an important observation, thanks! Doglegs seem to be different. Those left to right turns aren't built the same, as you've written. The problem is that Ken worked with what faced him. I have to wonder what he'd be like if he played today? He worked his game and polished every aspect he needed to succeed. I suspect that what made Ken great was his competitive drive, not some inherent skill set. I'd think a forehand for such holes would just be another skill he'd know he needed to win.

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