#71  
Old 01-06-2022, 12:40 PM
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Brychanus Brychanus is online now
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Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
I certainly found more distance early on with a hop in my x-step. It took me a long time to understand how to bring momentum into a fully horizontal x-step/swing.
Do you still use both/can say any more about your experience and tradeoffs developing one vs. the other? Still using both? Any wear & tear considerations?

I am still working on solidifying some fundamentals w/standstills. In the meantime, I have been having some success in the gym improving my lower body strength & flexibility with leg plyos. I am starting to wonder if I might find a little hop to be constructive w/ my body type when I get back to improving my x-step. Of course I can just try it out, but I always like to start w/ wisdom!

Others w/ experience encouraged to respond too (esp. thoughts for relatively new players)!
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  #72  
Old 01-06-2022, 03:25 PM
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NathanNoodleArm NathanNoodleArm is offline
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Others w/ experience encouraged to respond too (esp. thoughts for relatively new players)!
Paul Ulibari used to throw with a hop. I heard him tell a story where another pro told him you can't down tempo a hop. He got rid of the hop. I used to throw with a hop and have also gotten rid of it.

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  #73  
Old 01-06-2022, 07:42 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Paul Ulibari used to throw with a hop. I heard him tell a story where another pro told him you can't down tempo a hop. He got rid of the hop. I used to throw with a hop and have also gotten rid of it.
I've heard him talk about that story too, but that statement about hopping is not true, you can simply change the amount of hop, but really it's the plant leg bracing that dictates the power on a shot, not so much the back leg. Lots of top pros hop to some extent which is a completely natural motion. Uli used to do a crow hop where the feet don't cross over which is a bit different than the Brinster hop. Uli also hasn't ever gotten his rating higher than it was with the old crow hop. He never looked comfortable when he tried to change it.


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Old 01-06-2022, 07:54 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
Do you still use both/can say any more about your experience and tradeoffs developing one vs. the other? Still using both? Any wear & tear considerations?

I am still working on solidifying some fundamentals w/standstills. In the meantime, I have been having some success in the gym improving my lower body strength & flexibility with leg plyos. I am starting to wonder if I might find a little hop to be constructive w/ my body type when I get back to improving my x-step. Of course I can just try it out, but I always like to start w/ wisdom!

Others w/ experience encouraged to respond too (esp. thoughts for relatively new players)!
IMO our bodies are built to handle vertical force(gravity) more naturally than lateral horizontal force. Knees extend and flex vertically, and do not take too kindly to horizontal or rotational forces. Body type also plays a role in which should be the dominant force.


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  #75  
Old 01-07-2022, 03:08 PM
prokebyt prokebyt is offline
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@SW22

Do you think there is a difference in shot repeatability/accuracy between powering shots horizontally vs vertically?
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Old 01-07-2022, 03:49 PM
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Lots of top pros hop to some extent which is a completely natural motion. Uli used to do a crow hop where the feet don't cross over which is a bit different than the Brinster hop. Uli also hasn't ever gotten his rating higher than it was with the old crow hop. He never looked comfortable when he tried to change it.
Super interesting. I just paged through some slow mos of top pros to look closely for hops. I didn't realize how many there are.

A few are truly "striding" through the x-step like Eagle and Simon. Dickerson, McBeth, Wysocki, Klein, Jones have baby hops that move quite laterally. Some (like Gibson) will stride at downtempo and then have a little hop for big distance throws.

If you look around, you'll see a big continuum between no hop at all to small lateral hops to big vertical hops (Gurthie).

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Old 01-07-2022, 04:58 PM
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@SW22

Do you think there is a difference in shot repeatability/accuracy between powering shots horizontally vs vertically?
IMO being more vertical is more consistent(and efficient) thanks to gravity and being in tune to it like a pendulum clock.

Vertical swing is more consistent releasing straight on your line, but height may vary more.

Horizontal swing might be more consistent in height on your line, but may spray more left/right.

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  #78  
Old 01-10-2022, 09:25 AM
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This applies to hops and strides. SW22 pointed out I had some rise/fall dynamics that were backwards. I'm already finding it easier to triage with a hop than with a "striding" x-step (YMMV).

Whether you're hopping or striding, I thought a series like this new "form shadow" effort from WolfKat discs is really nice to ID relative height & other mechanics.

Attached is Paige's sequence. You can clearly see the drop in height during the stride into the plant. She sustains that height through the hit, then as the plant leg extends in the follow through she rises in balance again.

You can see all the same things in video, of course, but the string of images is nice for scanning things simultaneously.
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File Type: jpg ww3ipgj55va81.jpg (62.7 KB, 42 views)

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Old 01-11-2022, 10:34 AM
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drk_evns drk_evns is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by prokebyt View Post
@SW22

Do you think there is a difference in shot repeatability/accuracy between powering shots horizontally vs vertically?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
IMO being more vertical is more consistent(and efficient) thanks to gravity and being in tune to it like a pendulum clock.

Vertical swing is more consistent releasing straight on your line, but height may vary more.

Horizontal swing might be more consistent in height on your line, but may spray more left/right.
Well said. I would also say this:

Vertical swing sets you up to most efficiently use the power in your body. For that reason, it generally has more distance potential. It's more accurate in that it's a more consistent motion.

Horizontal swing allows a lot more angle flexibility, but requires a lot of good discipline in your motion.

Vertical swing is missing less than a horizontal swing.

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Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
Do you still use both/can say any more about your experience and tradeoffs developing one vs. the other? Still using both? Any wear & tear considerations?

I am still working on solidifying some fundamentals w/standstills. In the meantime, I have been having some success in the gym improving my lower body strength & flexibility with leg plyos. I am starting to wonder if I might find a little hop to be constructive w/ my body type when I get back to improving my x-step. Of course I can just try it out, but I always like to start w/ wisdom!

Others w/ experience encouraged to respond too (esp. thoughts for relatively new players)!
I exclusively use a horizontal swing when I'm playing.

I throw a lot of anhyzers, and I've gotten really good at it. I like using my body to manipulate the angles. It's just the way I visualize the shots. With a vertical swing, I think there's a bit more reliance on understable plastic to get your right to left flight paths. It takes more skill and knowledge of your discs. I prefer not to judge the turn/rely on the turn of my discs when I don't have to.

I also prefer the look of a horizontal swing.

Vertical swing seems more natural (safer) for the body to me, but I think a horizontal swing can be very safe if you're doing it correctly. When I was learning, I did a lot of dangerous twisting, so in that way it's also a risk.

They're pretty distinct styles each with a lot of advantages. It all comes down to preference.

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Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
Super interesting. I just paged through some slow mos of top pros to look closely for hops. I didn't realize how many there are.

A few are truly "striding" through the x-step like Eagle and Simon. Dickerson, McBeth, Wysocki, Klein, Jones have baby hops that move quite laterally. Some (like Gibson) will stride at downtempo and then have a little hop for big distance throws.

If you look around, you'll see a big continuum between no hop at all to small lateral hops to big vertical hops (Gurthie).
You're right, there's certainly a continuum. A lot of the horizontal throwers will leave the ground with both feet on fast/high power throws because of how much speed they're bringing into the x-step. McBeth often "floats" into the plant, so it looks almost like a hop, but you'll also notice his COG is mostly moving forward (quickly) as opposed to launching it up. If you watch GG in slow motion he's almost straight up and down (see "Power of Posture" seabas22).

Drew brings a bit of verticality into his big drives WITH the horizontal speed. He also started throwing with a much more vertical style. Certainly a middle ground.

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Last edited by drk_evns; 01-11-2022 at 10:37 AM.
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  #80  
Old 01-11-2022, 02:18 PM
NoseDownKing NoseDownKing is offline
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Mostly a mental thing, but I feel way more consistent with a horizontal swing. Since it feels like I get the mass going more straight targetwards opposed to up and down like in the vertical swing. I agree and believe that the vertical swing is more consistent from a technical point of view. But for me it mentally feels like it has way more moving parts and mass not going targetwards.



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