#151  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:03 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I doubt that will be the case. Not paying merch in lieu of cash was the rule for about 10 years, until the 2011 update to the Competition Manual. Pro fields weren't smaller nor were top amateurs hesitant to move up early during that time.

There was also, and remains, a trophy-only option for ams playing a pro division. Pay a reduced entry (1/3 to 1/2 of full entry...TD's discretion) and not be eligible to win prizes whether cash or merch. Perhaps now that merch in lieu of cash is again no longer an option, we'll see a resurgence of that trophy-only entry fee.

As for the tweeners playing "down". Good. The tweeners playing "up" tends to lead to a blurring of where division breaks should be (ratings-wise). If the 950-960 "tweeners" are in MA1, maybe the 920ish tweeners will be in MA2 and the 880 tweeners in MA3. Rather than the 880 tweeners being the top of MA2, the 920 tweeners being the top of MA1, and the 950 tweeners donating to MPO.
I get that it wasn't always the case, but I suspect that some TDs, particularly at decent sized pro-am events, were thinking, "hmmm, he wants merch instead of cash. I'll be happy to give him a $400 gift card to the retail shop for merch that I only paid about $250 to stock in the store." I get that it'll change some TDs work at the end of the event, but in my area several TDs only pay the pros electronically anyway; so it's just a matter of pressing button "A" or button "B". No difference -- EXCEPT the TD actually benefits on the margin for Ams taking merch in lieu of cash.

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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
whether it is legal or not you could almost certainly get away with it. actually a good idea although it does reduce the purse a bit.
It seems to me some (pros) are determined to have this hard line between pro and amateur and if their purse is reduced they don't seem to care.

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Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
From what I was told...
PDGA feels pros should be current (Agreed). So when I asked "why just dont you require someone playing pro to be current" the answer I got was "if you want to test the waters of pro as an amateur, this allows you to do it while still having the ability to be an amatuer and not be current. There is no way to determine if a player can cash before the event starts."
Robert, the interesting thing, if that's what you were told directly, is again it focuses primarily on the non-member. This doesn't seem to address the long time registered member Ams at all.

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Here's the thing...this passing cash down rather than paying out in merch is how it used to work. It's not new. Paying out in merch in lieu of cash added more work to the TD's plate. Going back to a flat decline and pass it down is EASIER for TDs.

And before the argument comes that it isn't that hard to pay merch,... TDs at pro events generally don't have merch available to pay out with. Or a vendor lined up to use for a voucher payout.

Then with pro-am tournaments, there are still True Amateur events where, again, there may be no merch or vendors on hand to do payouts because there is no expectation of merch payouts at all. TDs at those events might have a left over player pack or two, but they're not likely to have much else to choose from for a merch payout, if they even have enough to cover the amount being converted.

From a TD perspective, passing declined cash down is way simpler to deal with than providing merch in lieu of cash. If I were to guess, this was a move driven by TDs more than by players.
JC, I'll take you at your word. But in today's electronic world, I'll still disagree that it's easier on the TD to not pay merch in lieu of cash.

First, if it's a pro-only event, no problem. Ams playing here know upfront there's no merch.
If the TD has no vendor at a pro-Am event, and/or barely has enough merch to cover the existing expected Ams to get payout, I also get it. There's not gonna be any/enough merch at these event. Not trying to FORCE a TD to have merch when he has none on site. But having something on-site seems to be everyone's focus here, yet we have very quickly become an online world. You could do continue the practice of Am taking merch in lieu with the understanding he/she might not get it today, might have to get a gift certificate/store credit/online-vendor-whatever. It doesn't have to also be convenient for the Am cashing in the pro division. As I said above, I know at least one TD that does everything online. He pays all the pros electronically, and emails all the Ams their online gift card and/or listing in his store within 24 hours after the event. So in this case it's not different whether he's doing one version of electronic payment to Samuel Pro or to Jimmy Am.

Now the part in the red -- like I said, I'll take you at your word, but it doesn't seem to make sense to me that the TD wouldn't gladly get the markup from the merch he's gonna give that Am and send out one less pro payment. The TD actually makes a profit if he does that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AByrd View Post
Not sure if this has been covered, but here goes:

So..an amateur may play in a pro division, but cannot accept cash or merchandise in lieu of cash.

Can the pro playing in an amateur division accept merchandise?

Not sure if the geese and ganders are on the same page with this update of the competition manual.
According to the rules in the CC, yes. SO they made a rule that is not reciprocal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Pros aren't going to be turning Am if they accept prizes, though. If you want a reward of value for placing well in a pro division, it is cash, period. Take it and turn pro or decline it to stay am. It's a binary decision rather than a layered decision based on the form of compensation.

To me, if you want to argue that ams deserve merch in lieu of cash in a pro division, then pros should be able to take cash in lieu of merch in an am division.
See Alan's (AByrd) response. Then make it the exact same rules for both groups subbing the words pro for am in both cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
It might be, but I'm not really the best to answer this. I don't think we should be looking for "easy" ways to encourage ams to play pro. I'm not that interested in encouraging ams to play pro at all...certainly not if they need to be bribed with player packs to do so.

I'm fine with ams playing pro if they choose, with the explicit understanding that they only do so if they either a) accept cash and turn pro if they place well enough or b) accept that they'll get nothing (but a trophy) no matter where they finish if they wish to remain amateur.

I'm not sure what's gained by bribing players to play a pro division if they're not inclined to be a pro. Sure, there may be players on the cusp who want to "test the waters" but if that's truly their intent, then the discounted entry fee should be sufficient for them to do so without paying full fare and "donating" for the opportunity.
A lot of these conversations I've been involved in on this topic seem to have the background of the talk that they are speaking primarily/only of MA1s "floating in" to play in MPO. Those are always two large divisions that rarely have trouble in any tournament making when offered. It is a totally different story in age-protected and women's divisions. It's not unusual, even at local A-tiers with added cash to have only a couple pro women register, or a couple pro grandmasters, etc. For me locally and what I've heard, these groups are happy to have a few Ams playing up to make a division. And maybe they're just faking me, but I've never heard a complaint when I finished in the cash ahead of someone. Maybe I did four or five times in 20+ events. These pros aren't trying to hardline the Pro/Am separation; they just want to have a decent number of people in the field in my age division.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLovin View Post
Taken directly from the PDGA Facebook page about 20 mins ago.
Update to provide context for the 2018 Competition Manual for Disc Golf - Section 1.10 (October 19th, 2017)
The changes in this section came about for various reasons after many, many PDGA Competition Committee discussions that included other PDGA BOD and Staff members alike. Some of the most notable talking points that helped push these changes were as follows:

Amateur player complaints (and a BOD request) concerning a player winning an Amateur Worlds title despite previously accepting cash in a Professional division, in a PDGA-sanctioned event, prior to becoming a PDGA member.

Amateur player and Tournament Director complaints about non-members jumping back and forth and "poaching" both cash in Professional divisions and merchandise in Amateur divisions.

Professional player complaints about non-members and Amateur members taking winnings out of the Pro divisions purses.

Tournament Director complaints about having to come up with large quantities of merchandise to payout Amateurs in Pro divisions.

...
Of the four bullets:
1 is about TDs complaining. Really? they complained about having to dole out merch and keep the markup profit margin. But it was too much trouble. C'mon. There's always stuff. The TD can't make out all the pro checks in advance and then write the names in. The payouts get skewed by how many ties there are past first place, etc.

2 1/2 of the other 3 are about non-members. Simple solution -- make it required to be a member to play in an event. THAT, my friends, is not unreasonable. But the other 1/2 punishes the long time register PDGA member Am. It just does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Which is why amateurs should have to declare their intent to decline cash BEFORE the event starts. Or at the very least, before the awards ceremony begins. There's no reason for that to not come up until during awards.

As a TD back the last time that this was the rule, I always asked any players I knew to be amateurs who might decline the cash to make the decision before awards. At a couple tournaments, I even put an (A) on their scoreport card so it was clear.
I'd 100% support this. In fact, I always tell the TD, if not before the tournament, certainly before the last round if I am playing well, that he doesn't need to figure out pay for me. I'll happily accept a store or vendor credit or whatever is left available.
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  #152  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
A lot of these conversations I've been involved in on this topic seem to have the background of the talk that they are speaking primarily/only of MA1s "floating in" to play in MPO. Those are always two large divisions that rarely have trouble in any tournament making when offered.
That is regional. MPO and MA1 each average only 10% of the field at our events. 80% play in other divisions.
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  #153  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:38 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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It's important to recognize that just because a practice is prevalent in one area, that doesn't mean it is prevalent everywhere. Around here, no one does electronic payouts. Certainly not in the pro division. Only occasionally in the am division (if there's a payout at all for them) are online vouchers/gift certificates used. So it's not as simple as press button A or B for the TDs I know. I've never encountered checks except at big events (A-tiers and up) where no one wanted thousands of dollars in cash floating around. Every event I've played this year (B & C tiers) was straight cash. Easy to pre-sort (even before the event if it fills in advance), easy to divvy up in the cases of ties, and no need to get writer's cramp trying to get everything ready for awards.

If it wasn't obvious before, it should be obvious now with these changes...the PDGA is trying to push the True Amateur model. Hard. True Amateur events typically have no need for a vendor of any kind. The TD doesn't need to be a vendor (and most TDs don't anyway). The club doesn't have to vend. No stores (online or B&M) need to work with an event to vend for it. So if there's no need for a vendor for the amateur divisions, is it worth a vendor's time to be available just in case there's an am or two cashing in a pro division?

These rules are simply another step toward making True Amateur the standard rather than an alternative in PDGA sanctioned tournaments.
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  #154  
Old 10-23-2017, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post

These rules are simply another step toward making True Amateur the standard rather than an alternative in PDGA sanctioned tournaments.
Then they better start giving out bigger player packs or drastically reduce entry fees...
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  #155  
Old 10-23-2017, 07:08 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by brutalbrutus View Post
Then they better start giving out bigger player packs or drastically reduce entry fees...
They should be doing that anyway, but that's up to the TDs. I don't believe the PDGA can dictate that sort of thing, nor should they.

I honestly see no reason for any amateur to be paying more than $50 for any tournament below a major. And no reason for that cost to be more than $25-30 at a B-tier or below. Entry fees keep rising because tournaments keep trying to have bigger and bigger payouts (with or without a player pack). It's ridiculous.
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  #156  
Old 10-23-2017, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
It's important to recognize that just because a practice is prevalent in one area, that doesn't mean it is prevalent everywhere. Around here, no one does electronic payouts. Certainly not in the pro division. Only occasionally in the am division (if there's a payout at all for them) are online vouchers/gift certificates used. So it's not as simple as press button A or B for the TDs I know. I've never encountered checks except at big events (A-tiers and up) where no one wanted thousands of dollars in cash floating around. Every event I've played this year (B & C tiers) was straight cash. Easy to pre-sort (even before the event if it fills in advance), easy to divvy up in the cases of ties, and no need to get writer's cramp trying to get everything ready for awards.

If it wasn't obvious before, it should be obvious now with these changes...the PDGA is trying to push the True Amateur model. Hard. True Amateur events typically have no need for a vendor of any kind. The TD doesn't need to be a vendor (and most TDs don't anyway). The club doesn't have to vend. No stores (online or B&M) need to work with an event to vend for it. So if there's no need for a vendor for the amateur divisions, is it worth a vendor's time to be available just in case there's an am or two cashing in a pro division?

These rules are simply another step toward making True Amateur the standard rather than an alternative in PDGA sanctioned tournaments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
They should be doing that anyway, but that's up to the TDs. I don't believe the PDGA can dictate that sort of thing, nor should they.

I honestly see no reason for any amateur to be paying more than $50 for any tournament below a major. And no reason for that cost to be more than $25-30 at a B-tier or below. Entry fees keep rising because tournaments keep trying to have bigger and bigger payouts (with or without a player pack). It's ridiculous.
As you stated, practices vary in different areas. Around Austin, many of the events are hosted by for-profit TDs. If they couldn't make a decent profit on the ams they may not want to TD at all.
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  #157  
Old 10-23-2017, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
They should be doing that anyway, but that's up to the TDs. I don't believe the PDGA can dictate that sort of thing, nor should they.

I honestly see no reason for any amateur to be paying more than $50 for any tournament below a major. And no reason for that cost to be more than $25-30 at a B-tier or below. Entry fees keep rising because tournaments keep trying to have bigger and bigger payouts (with or without a player pack). It's ridiculous.
If someone around here could get entries down to $20-$25, without any players pack or payout at all, I'd be happy as a clam. Unfortunately, I have the sinking feeling that I'd be a lonely clam.

I don't know that these particular competition manual changes are a push toward any of that, or not. To me, it just looks like the PDGA wants to unblur the line between Pros & Ams, a little bit. As if it's important which, at least at the lower-tier levels, it doesn't seem to me to be. They're all semi-pros, with a top division and a next-to-top division.
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  #158  
Old 10-24-2017, 10:48 AM
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Tournament Director complaints about having to come up with large quantities of merchandise to payout Amateurs in Pro divisions.


For many event directors, it is not as easy as pressing button A or B. In my area, several events run an Am weekend, followed by a Pro Weekend. At the Pro Weekend there are generally no vendors and no extra merchandise laying around. It is not easy for these TD's to merch out an Am, when there is no merch on site.



True example: Up and coming Am player cashes at Pro Weekend. And big cash, like almost $200.00. When player declined the cash, the TD moved the cash down to the next Pro on the list. End of story. Two weeks later the Am player complains to PDGA that they didn't get any merchandise when they declined the cash. So, three weeks after the event, the TD is now "forced" to give this player nearly $200.00 in merchandise they didn't have to begin with!! Now this TD is out of pocket close to $200.00 because they were not a vendor and they did not have any merchandise sitting around three weeks after the event.



So please explain again how "EASY" it is for a TD to give merchandise instead of cash? Explain how TD's "ALWAYS" make money if an Am declines cash?


Just ONE side of the story.

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  #159  
Old 10-24-2017, 11:06 AM
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In the end, this policy will hit the FPO field harder than any other division. Professional age-protected divisions, from Grandmaster and up will follow. With the emphasis lately on growing the sport for women and seniors, I think that more thought should have been given to this.
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Old 10-24-2017, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
For many event directors, it is not as easy as pressing button A or B. In my area, several events run an Am weekend, followed by a Pro Weekend. At the Pro Weekend there are generally no vendors and no extra merchandise laying around. It is not easy for these TD's to merch out an Am, when there is no merch on site.
How many is several? Out of how many events in your area?

Quote:
True example: Up and coming Am player cashes at Pro Weekend. And big cash, like almost $200.00. When player declined the cash, the TD moved the cash down to the next Pro on the list. End of story. Two weeks later the Am player complains to PDGA that they didn't get any merchandise when they declined the cash. So, three weeks after the event, the TD is now "forced" to give this player nearly $200.00 in merchandise they didn't have to begin with!! Now this TD is out of pocket close to $200.00 because they were not a vendor and they did not have any merchandise sitting around three weeks after the event.
Again, out of how many events does an incident like this take place?

Online vouchers would be the solution cases like the these. In the second case, it is sad that somebody would do the TD like that...but a signed statement that cash/merch was declined would prevent most of these.

Again...I believe that the BOD failed to consider the non-open divisions. FPO and age-protected divisions will be affected.

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