#731  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:37 AM
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wolfmandragon wolfmandragon is offline
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Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
uhhh... all of those guys use the x-step.

I can't think of any examples of current pros that don't.

Avery turns his back totally to the target and his last step is directly toward the target.

Feldburg looks like he is going to use the X step, but on his second step he lines his hip to the target and hops into the shot.

Cam Todd's last step is a high scissor step.

As for the Europeans, I cannot remember the Swedish and Finnish names.

I threw Swedish style(modeled after Feldburg) for a few years. There is almost no way to make an X step work with it. One either has to scissor step or or hop into the shot. To create power with the arm bar, the body has to be moving in pretty straight line. The hips still have to rotate fully, that's where the hop comes in.

Feldburg teaches the X step, but watch the slow mos of his shots. He is moving very linearly.

One thing the backwards run up, X step, scissor step and crow hop all have in common us that the hips go into deep rotation to where the strong side butt cheek is facing the target right before the 'pull' starts. That's really all that matters. How one get there is up to the player and the shot needed.

Sorry for the disassociated ramble.
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  #732  
Old 02-22-2020, 11:14 AM
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drk_evns drk_evns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfmandragon View Post
Avery turns his back totally to the target and his last step is directly toward the target.

Feldburg looks like he is going to use the X step, but on his second step he lines his hip to the target and hops into the shot.

Cam Todd's last step is a high scissor step.

As for the Europeans, I cannot remember the Swedish and Finnish names.

I threw Swedish style(modeled after Feldburg) for a few years. There is almost no way to make an X step work with it. One either has to scissor step or or hop into the shot. To create power with the arm bar, the body has to be moving in pretty straight line. The hips still have to rotate fully, that's where the hop comes in.

Feldburg teaches the X step, but watch the slow mos of his shots. He is moving very linearly.

One thing the backwards run up, X step, scissor step and crow hop all have in common us that the hips go into deep rotation to where the strong side butt cheek is facing the target right before the 'pull' starts. That's really all that matters. How one get there is up to the player and the shot needed.

Sorry for the disassociated ramble.
I'm not sure you understand what an x-step is? Can you give me one video of a pro not doing an x-step on a drive? I've watched countless videos of the players you've mentioned and all use an x-step.

Scissor step seems to be something different to you but I'm not sure that it is.

If your left foot crosses behind your plant foot in the drive, you're doing an x-step.
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  #733  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:15 PM
wims wims is online now
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I guess he means that little hop like what Steve Brinster does in this video. He doesn't properly cross his legs in the x-step
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vhzIp2lyI4&t=10s

Last edited by wims; 02-22-2020 at 12:17 PM.
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  #734  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:21 PM
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wolfmandragon wolfmandragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post

....
If your left foot crosses behind your plant foot in the drive, you're doing an x-step.
No, you are not. An X step is very specific. In all run ups, the weak foot crosses behind the strong foot. Body mechanics demand this, it is not optional.

In an X Step, the feet move off line in an X pattern whilst the body stays, mostly, on the line, with the disc staying in one spot in the air until the pull is started. Bent arm throwers will move the disc off line a bit, but other than that, theirs is the same as a full reach back.

If one are not doing all of the above, then it is not an X Step.

In a scissor step, the weak foot 'sweeps' inline, where the X step the weak foot steps off line. To get the hips engaged, the scissor step's weak foot must penetrate deeper towards the target than what the X step has to..

In a backwards run up, one turns their back towards the target before the weak foot steps through.

In a crow hop, the weak foot passes behind the strong foot whilst the strong foot is in the air.

All 4 run ups start the same and end the same, it is how the body transitions through the movement is what makes the run ups different.

This needs to be it's own thread; I probably should have prerubed myself, it seems that this has already been argued before.

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Last edited by wolfmandragon; 02-22-2020 at 12:23 PM.
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  #735  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:26 PM
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drk_evns drk_evns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfmandragon View Post
No, you are not. An X step is very specific. In all run ups, the weak foot crosses behind the strong foot. Body mechanics demand this, it is not optional.

In an X Step, the feet move off line in an X pattern whilst the body stays, mostly, on the line, with the disc staying in one spot in the air until the pull is started. Bent arm throwers will move the disc off line a bit, but other than that, theirs is the same as a full reach back.

If one are not doing all of the above, then it is not an X Step.

In a scissor step, the weak foot 'sweeps' inline, where the X step the weak foot steps off line. To get the hips engaged, the scissor step's weak foot must penetrate deeper towards the target than what the X step has to..

In a backwards run up, one turns their back towards the target before the weak foot steps through.

In a crow hop, the weak foot passes behind the strong foot whilst the strong foot is in the air.

All 4 run ups start the same and end the same, it is how the body transitions through the movement is what makes the run ups different.

This needs to be it's own thread; I probably should have prerubed myself, it seems that this has already been argued before.


Ive never heard this before. Did you invent these terms?
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  #736  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:47 PM
swhite swhite is offline
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I guess I am also confused about what exactly constitutes an x-step.

I have always thought that Feldberg uses an x-step in his drives, such as the one in the video below, but what do I know.

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  #737  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:59 PM
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drk_evns drk_evns is offline
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Originally Posted by swhite View Post
I guess I am also confused about what exactly constitutes an x-step.

I have always thought that Feldberg uses an x-step in his drives, such as the one in the video below, but what do I know.



Ive never heard someone use those terms and it sort of sounds like made up forum-speak.

Im not sure, but thats what it sounds like. I would call ALL of those and x-step.

Ive spoken at length about form with many many people and never heard anyone use those terms or posit that feldberg or Avery Jenkins dont do an x-step.
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  #738  
Old 02-22-2020, 01:12 PM
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wolfmandragon wolfmandragon is offline
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I realize that I am somewhat pendantic in using terminology precisely; it irritates my friends as well. In above video, you can see his feet pass in the air. This was one of the videos that I use to loop over and over learning the Swedish style.

It was he that spoke of using, as I think he called it, the pro hop in one of his very early videos. In Baseball, we called it a crow hop... same thing, but I should have used his term.

All these terms have been used on this forum. I did not create them.
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  #739  
Old 02-22-2020, 01:16 PM
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drk_evns drk_evns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfmandragon View Post
I realize that I am somewhat pendantic in using terminology precisely; it irritates my friends as well. In above video, you can see his feet pass in the air. This was one of the videos that I use to loop over and over learning the Swedish style.

It was he that spoke of using, as I think he called it, the pro hop in one of his very early videos. In Baseball, we called it a crow hop... same thing, but I should have used his term.

I think those are all adjectives they use to describe an x-step, not official definitions that make them specifically NOT an x-step.

Swedish throwers use more of a pendulum motion in the arms, but the x-step is consistent among all top throwers.

There are different ways to achieve an x-step. Individual body type and form intricacies can look different, but the trail foot crossing behind the plant foot in the stride equals x-step.

I havent seen anyone other than you make this claim.
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  #740  
Old 02-22-2020, 02:06 PM
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wolfmandragon wolfmandragon is offline
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Last prerube.. unfortually I have non fun stuff I have to go do.
Both following are from before I joined the forum. Perhaps it was over on DGR where someone broke down the difference between an X step and a scissor step. Some of my info came from tutorial videos; much harder to search for those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarel View Post
stokely my fav to watch on vid that scissor step is what i use most of the time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
The idea behind the x step and the hop is more or less the same, the only difference is what you are more comfortable with. I do a 4 step X-step off the tee, a 3 step x-step when I need to hit the lie exactly ( marker ), and of course also throw from a standstill when I dont have room for a runup.
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