#11  
Old 03-31-2020, 04:27 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Arizona
Years Playing: 1.4
Courses Played: 7
Throwing Style: RHFH
Posts: 113
Niced 43 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
One of the underlying rules concepts is you don't get to choose which result you would like of two different inbounds throws resulting from using a provisional. I'm sure one of the RC posters will or should back this up. Throwing a provisional in case you don't like your inbounds throw is not an option. However, you can agree to abandon your first throw no matter where it ends up landing and throw your third shot from the tee and have to play it.
Just to find out....I posted this question (I hope I worded it correctly) to the PDGA Rules Committee. When they post the response or email me with it, I'll post it here.

Provisional Use.

Player tees off and the disc appears to be inbounds, but the player isn't sure about the lie.

Player declares they will throw a provisional and does so.

The group gets to where they can see both discs.

Player decides they like where the provisional lies better. They declare they are abandoning their first throw, adding a penalty stroke (for the abandoned throw), and playing from where the provisional lies.

Is that legal? I believe it is, but the question has come up in a forum and one belief is that you cannot use a provisional if the initial throw is inbounds. You have to declare the disc abandoned and go back and rethrow (one stroke penalty). I say this is where the rule about using a provisional to save time comes into play.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:05 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 46
Courses Played: 387
Posts: 5,175
Niced 1,884 Times in 923 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
And that falls under the 'save time" part of the provisional rule. If you played a provisional, you wouldn't have to 'waste' time going back to your last throw after abandoning your other throw. You play the provisional, come up to your previous disc, don't like the lie, declare it abandoned, declare your provisional as the in play disc, add one stroke for the abandoned lie, and continue with the disc that was the provisional.

So, yes you can use the provisional after abandoning a throw....you have saved time by not having to go back to the spot of the last throw and your group doesn't have to decide where you made your last throw from if it wasn't the tee box.
No, you can't.

If your lie was in-bounds, it is a correct lie. You must play it. One of your choices on how to play it is to abandon it, go back to the previous lie and make a new throw. But, you cannot use that provisional throw because that throw was not made "in case the lie is crappy". It couldn't possibly have been made for that situation because that's not one of the valid reasons for a time-saving provisional.

You do not have carte blanch to do everything and anything just because it would save time. You only have the right to start a set of provisional throws which is to be used in case of one or more of: OB, lost, or missed mando.

You DO get to choose which of those you are throwing a set of provisional throws for. For example, you may say "I'll throw a provisional in case we can't find that disc." If you then find the disc safe, OB, or missed the mando, the provisional throw vanishes in a puff of smoke. It is no longer there for you to continue to play from.

Although it is not easy to decipher from the rule, it is easy to remember that you NEVER get to make a choice after seeing two lies. After you throw any provisional, the lie you play depends on fate.

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:47 PM
krupicka's Avatar
krupicka krupicka is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Naperville, IL
Years Playing: 18.9
Courses Played: 72
Posts: 1,316
Niced 304 Times in 167 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
Just to find out....I posted this question (I hope I worded it correctly) to the PDGA Rules Committee. When they post the response or email me with it, I'll post it here.

Provisional Use.

Player tees off and the disc appears to be inbounds, but the player isn't sure about the lie.

Player declares they will throw a provisional and does so.

The group gets to where they can see both discs.

Player decides they like where the provisional lies better. They declare they are abandoning their first throw, adding a penalty stroke (for the abandoned throw), and playing from where the provisional lies.

Is that legal? I believe it is, but the question has come up in a forum and one belief is that you cannot use a provisional if the initial throw is inbounds. You have to declare the disc abandoned and go back and rethrow (one stroke penalty). I say this is where the rule about using a provisional to save time comes into play.
Bill, I got your message for the RC, but could not email a response as my hosting provider accidentally deleted pretty much everything on the server. Grrr.

Steve's answer is the longer version of what I would have replied.

You cannot choose to use a provisional throw when opting for an abandoned throw (the list of reasons in 809.02.B is meant to be exhaustive). When you choose to abandon a throw, you need to go back to the previous lie and throw after that choice.

Niced: (1)

Last edited by krupicka; 03-31-2020 at 05:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-01-2020, 11:10 AM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Arizona
Years Playing: 1.4
Courses Played: 7
Throwing Style: RHFH
Posts: 113
Niced 43 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
Bill, I got your message for the RC, but could not email a response as my hosting provider accidentally deleted pretty much everything on the server. Grrr.

Steve's answer is the longer version of what I would have replied.

You cannot choose to use a provisional throw when opting for an abandoned throw (the list of reasons in 809.02.B is meant to be exhaustive). When you choose to abandon a throw, you need to go back to the previous lie and throw after that choice.
Thank you for clearing this up, I appreciate it. It seems like it would have fallen under the 'to save time' part of the provisional throw rule - but that's why we sometimes have to go back to the rules committee to find the facts.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-04-2020, 07:09 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Courses Played: 16
Posts: 380
Niced 220 Times in 117 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
You never have to be specific on the reason for a provisional....so you never have to say..."I'm throwing a provisional because my other throw might be lost". All you need to say is "I'm throwing a provisional."
I don't agree with this. Not piling on you Bill, but just because it is an interesting point that got slightly masked by subsequent discussion of other points.

A players choice as to what they would do may differ dependent on WHICH outcome happens: OB, missed Mando, or Lost Disc. The obvious one, as Steve said in his post, is when a disc might be lost or it might be OB. The player is obliged to re-tee after a lost disc but they may want to play from last point in-bounds if it is OB. In this case the player should specify before they throw that the provisional is for a Lost disc but not for an OB disc. Had they just declared a provisional and NOT specified what for, then I think they would be obliged to use the provisional for EITHER outcome, Lost or OB.

Another example (which was the impetus for my OP, based off a FB post), is a player tees off and the spotter flags it as OB (note that spotters are not officials so their flags aren't binding). The player doubts the red flag, AND also wonders whether their shot crossed in bounds before going OB. So the player specifies a time-saving provisional just for OB & never crossed in-bounds, but not for OB & did cross in-bounds.

When there is more than one unknown possible AND you would choose differently depending on which unknown happens - then it is in the players interest to specify what the provisional is for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
No where in 809.02 Provisional Throw does it say you have to declare WHY the provisional is being thrown. Just that you must declare a provisional is being thrown.
You are right. The rules don't spell it out. But we can infer the value of doing so. It is in the players own self-interest to do so.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-06-2020, 12:46 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Arizona
Years Playing: 1.4
Courses Played: 7
Throwing Style: RHFH
Posts: 113
Niced 43 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
I don't agree with this. Not piling on you Bill, but just because it is an interesting point that got slightly masked by subsequent discussion of other points.

A players choice as to what they would do may differ dependent on WHICH outcome happens: OB, missed Mando, or Lost Disc. The obvious one, as Steve said in his post, is when a disc might be lost or it might be OB. The player is obliged to re-tee after a lost disc but they may want to play from last point in-bounds if it is OB. In this case the player should specify before they throw that the provisional is for a Lost disc but not for an OB disc. Had they just declared a provisional and NOT specified what for, then I think they would be obliged to use the provisional for EITHER outcome, Lost or OB.

Another example (which was the impetus for my OP, based off a FB post), is a player tees off and the spotter flags it as OB (note that spotters are not officials so their flags aren't binding). The player doubts the red flag, AND also wonders whether their shot crossed in bounds before going OB. So the player specifies a time-saving provisional just for OB & never crossed in-bounds, but not for OB & did cross in-bounds.

When there is more than one unknown possible AND you would choose differently depending on which unknown happens - then it is in the players interest to specify what the provisional is for.



You are right. The rules don't spell it out. But we can infer the value of doing so. It is in the players own self-interest to do so.
Don't worry....I'm not taking any offense. Sometimes the rules aren't quite clear (if they were perfectly clear there would never be any questions about them). And I'm always learning....as a Certified Official, I figure it benefits me to be open and learn how other people interpret the rules and learn what the ruling should be.

However, about your comment about spotters....you are partially right. Normally, spotters are only there to provide an extra set of eyes and a different sight-line; in which case their "decision" is only advice. HOWEVER, the Tournament Director can declare a spotter to be a Tournament Official (if the spotter is a Certified Official AND designated by the Tournament Director) and when the spotter is declared as a Tournament Official then their decision is the rule. For example: I am a Certified Official and volunteered at the Memorial in Scottsdale, AZ. I was a spotter on the last day of play. My decisions were only suggestions (although I only got 'over-ruled' one time)....but the TD could have made me a Tournament Official. But the TD didn't want to have only one spotter a TO and not all of them as that would have led to confusion on the part of the players.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/112 Para A.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-09-2020, 04:16 PM
Doofenshmirtz's Avatar
Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Years Playing: 8
Courses Played: 96
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,029
Niced 343 Times in 172 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
I'm not going to quote the original post....but for the answer let's go to PDGA.com>Rules>Rules Questions and Answers where we find this:

QA-PRO-1: What is the provisional throw rule and when should it be used?
A provisional throw is used when a player disagrees with the group’s ruling and no Official is available, or when it might save time in case of a possible lost or OB disc, or missed mandatory. Provisional throws allow play to continue by deferring the ruling until the status of the disc in question can be determined, or an Official is available to settle the matter. In the case where a ruling is disputed or uncertain, a player may have to play out from both the original and the provisional throws, essentially completing two legs. Once a ruling has been made, only the throws for the correct leg are counted.

I bolded the part that applies to your question. If you don't know the status of your throw, you can throw a provisional (remember to announce to your group that you are playing a provisional), and you keep throwing the provisional until you reach the initial throw. At that point you and the group make a decision as to the status of the throw in question. Then you play the appropriate disc from that point. If a decision can't be made, you continue to throw two discs until both are holed out; you record both scores and bring it up to the tournament director/rules official to determine which score is valid.
Going back to this point, I can't really agree that the rule allows multiple provisional throws before determining the status of the first throw. Looking at the language you bolded from the Q&A, in context, "provisional throws" appears to simply be a generic reference to the purpose of that type of throw rather than an intentional pluralization intended to imply that multiple provisional throws can be taken before determining the status of the originally thrown disc thought to be OB. It would be nice if the language were clearer and included in some other place than a description of purpose. By contrast, the "two legs" language for a provisional due to a disputed ruling is more clear regarding multiple throws.

At some point, the status of the original throw should be determined. If a second provisional throw in the same leg is going to be made due to OB/Lost/Mando reasons, its time to figure out whether it is necessary.

This also brings to mind the possibility that a provisional throw looks just like the first throw and is also in doubt. Can a second provisional leg be started?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-09-2020, 04:54 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Arizona
Years Playing: 1.4
Courses Played: 7
Throwing Style: RHFH
Posts: 113
Niced 43 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
Going back to this point, I can't really agree that the rule allows multiple provisional throws before determining the status of the first throw. Looking at the language you bolded from the Q&A, in context, "provisional throws" appears to simply be a generic reference to the purpose of that type of throw rather than an intentional pluralization intended to imply that multiple provisional throws can be taken before determining the status of the originally thrown disc thought to be OB. It would be nice if the language were clearer and included in some other place than a description of purpose. By contrast, the "two legs" language for a provisional due to a disputed ruling is more clear regarding multiple throws.

At some point, the status of the original throw should be determined. If a second provisional throw in the same leg is going to be made due to OB/Lost/Mando reasons, its time to figure out whether it is necessary.

This also brings to mind the possibility that a provisional throw looks just like the first throw and is also in doubt. Can a second provisional leg be started?
You can't have two provisionals in play. It's the same in ball golf. You hit from the tee box, decide to play a provisional (Original Ball/disc (A) 1 stroke, Provisional Ball/disc (B) 3rd stroke). You get to your provisional, but still not near ball/disc A, so you can hit B again (4 strokes). Now you are near ball/disc A, you have to decide which is in play A, now hitting 2 or B now hitting 5.

You can only play a provisional on a ball/disc that is in play....a provisional is not in play until it is declared in play.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-09-2020, 05:45 PM
araytx araytx is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: DFW
Years Playing: 13.8
Courses Played: 213
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 2,365
Niced 382 Times in 234 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
You play a provisional for two reasons.

1. you don't know the status of your throw (out of bounds, lost, etc). So you play a provisional until that is decided. -In this case, you declare you are throwing a provisional until the status of your throw is determined.

2. You don't know the ruling for a throw (is it out of bounds, is two meter rule in effect, etc) and the other players on your card can't decide. So you play a provisional AND the original, scoring two scores for that hole and then get a tournament director/rules official to make the decision on which is correct. -In this case, you declare you are throwing a provision along with the original and will have the TD/rules official determine which score is correct.

You never have to be specific on the reason for a provisional....so you never have to say..."I'm throwing a provisional because my other throw might be lost". All you need to say is "I'm throwing a provisional."

No where in 809.02 Provisional Throw does it say you have to declare WHY the provisional is being thrown. Just that you must declare a provisional is being thrown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
And that falls under the 'save time" part of the provisional rule. If you played a provisional, you wouldn't have to 'waste' time going back to your last throw after abandoning your other throw. You play the provisional, come up to your previous disc, don't like the lie, declare it abandoned, declare your provisional as the in play disc, add one stroke for the abandoned lie, and continue with the disc that was the provisional.

So, yes you can use the provisional after abandoning a throw....you have saved time by not having to go back to the spot of the last throw and your group doesn't have to decide where you made your last throw from if it wasn't the tee box.
Bill, I've only looked at your first few posts, and I KNOW this rule. You DON'T (ever!) get to see the outcome of the throw then decide to take it or not take it. When throwing a provisional, you are taking (key word "taking") the provisional in case [whatever reason you declare provisional] comes true. You never get to see the outcomes and then choose. I mean what if your provisional throw went in the basket? If I see my disc way up high above 2 meters (with the rule in effect), but nobody else does, can I just walk around 'pretending to look for it' while the rest of the card is clueless? Of course not. I can't "game the system" to get my "in case I'm OB provisional" (which went in the basket for a 3p), and ignore the fact that my disc is realistically in sight of someone either inbounds or out-of-bounds. There is not "choice of lies" on a provisional. I either MUST take the result of my original throw (if my reason for provisional does not come true) or I MUST take the result of the provisional (if the reason for my provisional does come true). I don't get to say, "...hey, I took a provisional for OB, but I'm actually in cr*p-shule-land inbounds, but I want to use my provie as the abandoned throw." NO way at all.

If you get up there and find another condition for which throwing from the previous lie is an option, then you decide at that point to either go back and throw with penalty OR take the result of either option in italics above "The status" above in red, is something concrete (like IB/OB) or (lost/IB), or (made/missed mando) etc. If you want to have a throw in case your disc is lost also, and it's rare but, you can do that by declaring two provisionals. Then you'd end up with throw1- the original throw; throw3a - first provisional in case the disc is out of bounds. and throw 3b - the second provisional in case your disc cannot be found or is declared lost by rule.
Reply With Quote
 

  #20  
Old 04-09-2020, 06:02 PM
araytx araytx is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: DFW
Years Playing: 13.8
Courses Played: 213
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 2,365
Niced 382 Times in 234 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
...HOWEVER, the Tournament Director can declare a spotter to be a Tournament Official (if the spotter is a Certified Official AND designated by the Tournament Director) and when the spotter is declared as a Tournament Official then their decision is the rule. For example: I am a Certified Official and volunteered at the Memorial in Scottsdale, AZ. I was a spotter on the last day of play. My decisions were only suggestions (although I only got 'over-ruled' one time)....but the TD could have made me a Tournament Official. But the TD didn't want to have only one spotter a TO and not all of them as that would have led to confusion on the part of the players.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/112 Para A.
True, however, if a Tournament Director does this, players should also be notified in advance either by caddy book reference, in player meeting before event, or a tee off hole for a tee-time event, that this one specific hole or specific holes have TO's making the calls and which calls they are making. The players shouldn't begin playing a hole NOT KNOWING that on a certain inbound/out-of-bounds line their rulings don't matter. I hate it when a certain situation the TD is called and the provisionals are interrupted or disregarded. If we are the officials on our own card, nothing is hurt by them playing out the set of provisionals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
Going back to this point, I can't really agree that the rule allows multiple provisional throws before determining the status of the first throw. Looking at the language you bolded from the Q&A, in context, "provisional throws" appears to simply be a generic reference to the purpose of that type of throw rather than an intentional pluralization intended to imply that multiple provisional throws can be taken before determining the status of the originally thrown disc thought to be OB. It would be nice if the language were clearer and included in some other place than a description of purpose. By contrast, the "two legs" language for a provisional due to a disputed ruling is more clear regarding multiple throws.

At some point, the status of the original throw should be determined. If a second provisional throw in the same leg is going to be made due to OB/Lost/Mando reasons, its time to figure out whether it is necessary.

This also brings to mind the possibility that a provisional throw looks just like the first throw and is also in doubt. Can a second provisional leg be started?
Possibly true. I took that reference to mean "beginning a set of provisional throws." My issue with the rule is once you start a set of provisional throws, you should either play out both sets of throws completely - OR - give up your provisional completely. I hate when the TD is called out to a hole and the provisionals are interrupted or ignored. Nothing is hurt by playing out both sets of throws to completion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
You can't have two provisionals in play. It's the same in ball golf. You hit from the tee box, decide to play a provisional (Original Ball/disc (A) 1 stroke, Provisional Ball/disc (B) 3rd stroke). You get to your provisional, but still not near ball/disc A, so you can hit B again (4 strokes). Now you are near ball/disc A, you have to decide which is in play A, now hitting 2 or B now hitting 5.

You can only play a provisional on a ball/disc that is in play....a provisional is not in play until it is declared in play.
Well, unlike ball golf you can have multiple provisionals in play but it is rare as I said in a post above, and only under specific circumstances. Particularly since we have both the "save time" provisionals and the "I don't agree with the group's ruling " provisionals as part of our rule book.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Provisional putt LateWesternSky Rules Questions & Discussion 24 09-18-2018 09:23 AM
Provisional Throws for Abandoned Throws korisu Rules Questions & Discussion 126 05-18-2018 09:57 AM
Using Provisional? KniceZ Rules Questions & Discussion 69 05-14-2016 11:52 PM
Limit on Provisional Throws? teemkey Rules Questions & Discussion 16 10-20-2015 04:36 PM
Another provisional question razorsmith.com Rules Questions & Discussion 154 05-08-2014 03:33 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.