#1421  
Old 09-09-2020, 11:30 AM
nothinbuttree nothinbuttree is offline
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Tournaments are won by throws that don't necessarily show up in any statistical reporting--like that 25' tester deep into the final round, or when your lie is rotten and you have to straddle so much your rear touches the ground. Or the 400' drive that not only is in the fairway, but is perfectly in the middle, allowing the best approach shot vs an obstructed one. Think of hole 18 at Idlewild. One foot out of line there can cost a stroke. None of the putting stats show pressure, or lie, as part of what is being reported. I'll never be a pro, but even in the am tourneys I have played I can tell you final round putts if you are near the top simply are harder to make. Dealing with that well can separate the good from the great. That's why some are regarded as the best putters, though their overall stats may not show it.

The other thing is there are so many different kinds of courses out there. For someone who wants tough putting, come to my area, where there is no such thing as a flat, or tree-free putting 'green'. Circle one might have 3 trees in it and an elevation change of 5' or more. And enough roots and slope to make even footing difficult. Every hole is different and the typical flat ground unobstructed putt rarely is seen.

Anyone who thinks throwing a plastic disc around a tree with one knee 12" higher than the other and pushing a little white ball with a club across a perfectly manicured surface are the same sport perhaps has not played one of them. I have played both, and while some terminology may be similar, they most certainly are quite different sports.
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  #1422  
Old 09-09-2020, 11:36 AM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuiltTooLong View Post
SO you think that convincing courses to remove all the chains is easily achievable, but convincing them to plant trees "doesn't seem possible in anyway"???

The delusion is real folks.
I'm not the remove the chains guy. That is ballgolfconvert.

I think that every basket in the world should be changed to a tougher smaller design. BUT ONLY when they are due for replacing. NOT BEFORE. I want to make that clear, not before!

Really I believe the PDGA should lower the basket size requirements, allow basket manufacturers, course designers to be able to choose that route. If it happens that baskets get smaller over the years then good deal.
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  #1423  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:21 PM
Ryan C Ryan C is offline
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Originally Posted by oldmandiscer View Post
It would be nice, but the truth is that most land where courses are like in city parks. It's usually smallish and wider open. You just cannot create a challenging course without making the target smaller. Then we have the other side where some good land is available but on a budget they don't hire a real good course designer. So we have some silly design tricked up course. A smaller basket could create more of a challenge and effective make these places have better courses.

If the designer knows putting is more difficult he's not going to put it on a mound or severe slope for instance or we better cut a real fairway here so it's possible to birdie without blind luck.
You'd could artificially create higher scores, yes. You could also use mozzarella sticks like they did at USDGC. You could make scoring higher in any number of ways. The issue is that most of these things make playing less fun. I don't want MORE spitouts than we already have.

Small public parks are generally NOT where high level events take place. Those are places where casual players go to have fun. You want a challenge, there are tougher courses available. We can't really stop people from designing bad/easy courses.

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  #1424  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:34 PM
txmxer txmxer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmandiscer View Post
I'm not the remove the chains guy. That is ballgolfconvert.

I think that every basket in the world should be changed to a tougher smaller design. BUT ONLY when they are due for replacing. NOT BEFORE. I want to make that clear, not before!

Really I believe the PDGA should lower the basket size requirements, allow basket manufacturers, course designers to be able to choose that route. If it happens that baskets get smaller over the years then good deal.
This is very different discussion IMO.

Allowing course designers another tool in the kit is ok by me. Reading the Houck design thread has been very illuminating.
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  #1425  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:43 PM
txmxer txmxer is online now
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I’ll add that I don’t think finishing a hole should be that hard in most cases. Designers are occasionally forced to make that part more difficult because they couldn’t make the play to the green challenging enough.

Attached is a tower design that I think went overboard. The basket is about 12’ above grade.

The only Smart play is a layup IMO.

If they had skipped the inner island I think it would be more reasonable.
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  #1426  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:48 PM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanJon View Post
What if we make the goalposts smaller?

It would definitely be a lot easier to move them next time.
NFL goalposts are smaller than Collegiate goalpost for the record. The ball is also different.
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  #1427  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:50 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan C View Post
You'd could artificially create higher scores, yes. You could also use mozzarella sticks like they did at USDGC. You could make scoring higher in any number of ways. The issue is that most of these things make playing less fun. I don't want MORE spitouts than we already have.

Small public parks are generally NOT where high level events take place. Those are places where casual players go to have fun. You want a challenge, there are tougher courses available. We can't really stop people from designing bad/easy courses.
I could argue that artificial OB is just artificially raising the scores as well. Am I suppose to pretend that a lake is everywhere a stake is, even though I can clearly see none exists there? You are landing further away from the target already, why punish the player even more? It's nonsensical and fluky in many instances as well. Like in round 4 Ricky just misses his putt, it gets up and rolls OB. Really random nonsense.

It raises the score but does little to determine the best player or who really played the best.

Most of these tricks have occurred in the last twenty years, as players have gotten better and better courses have to be tricked up with nonsense to make the scores go higher. Not at all contributing to the best player winning. The player who plays the best may still win, but it does create just more luck and randomness.
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  #1428  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:50 PM
autocrosscrx autocrosscrx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
NFL goalposts are smaller than Collegiate goalpost for the record. The ball is also different.
That isn't true on either account.
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  #1429  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:52 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
I’ll add that I don’t think finishing a hole should be that hard in most cases. Designers are occasionally forced to make that part more difficult because they couldn’t make the play to the green challenging enough.

Attached is a tower design that I think went overboard. The basket is about 12’ above grade.

The only Smart play is a layup IMO.

If they had skipped the inner island I think it would be more reasonable.
That's the exact definition of circus tricks. Just make the target smaller and quit the stupidity. It's just silly.
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  #1430  
Old 09-09-2020, 12:53 PM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
61st place is not top 20%. Im going to go shove my head in an oven now.

I just scored a sweet Philo Glow Star Destroyer to complete my all pink glow bag for $20. Glad I was online wasting my life away at the time.
Total putting is not he same as strokes gained on field in putting, which is the relevant stat. I.E. how do he putt when you put proximity to hole into the equation.
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