#11  
Old 01-05-2020, 06:27 PM
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ru4por ru4por is offline
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I think the call is to alert the player that he has inadvertently moved his marker and assist in helping him move it back. Watching a violation, then waiting to fruition to call it, would leave a bad taste in my mouth.
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  #12  
Old 01-05-2020, 07:06 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Is a marker in the wrong spot really a marker or just a stray piece of plastic at that point?
Just in principle, I don't like the concept that an incorrectly located marker can define a legal lie.

And reading further, there is support for this in the rules. The term 'marker disc' is defined liked this.

Quote:
802.05 Lie
D. ...The marker disc, or marker, is the disc used to mark the lie according to 802.06.
So a case can be made that if the disc isn't used according to the rules laid out in 802.06, then it is not a 'marker disc'.

As Biscoe says, it's just a bit of plastic.

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  #13  
Old 01-05-2020, 10:19 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Just in principle, I don't like the concept that an incorrectly located marker can define a legal lie.

And reading further, there is support for this in the rules. The term 'marker disc' is defined liked this.



So a case can be made that if the disc isn't used according to the rules laid out in 802.06, then it is not a 'marker disc'.

As Biscoe says, it's just a bit of plastic.

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When you choose to use a mini ("Alternatively...") your lie moves forward by the diameter of the thrown disc, so your lie is no longer defined by where the thrown disc was anyway.

This is also true for all other reasons a player would use a mini (OB, relief, etc.).

If the mini is placed in a way that doesn't conform to 802.06, that is a marking violation. D spells that out. But the lie is still defined by the mini.

The mini doesn't have the power to make all lies legal. If you mark in front of your opponent's thrown disc, that would still be a lie defined by the marker, but it would be an incorrect lie.

If the mini is ignored and actually is just a random piece of plastic, that would still be a marking violation because the player didn't use the thrown disc and didn't place a mini correctly.
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Old 01-06-2020, 10:29 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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I disagree that the lie is still defined by the mini if it is not in the correct spot. Marking with a mini is defined as "placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface, touching the front of the thrown disc on the line of play"- once that is correctly done imo you are done with marking. Place it incorrectly to begin with would be a marking violation, moving it once placed would not. IMO 802.07.1 referencing marking in the past tense supports this interpretation as well. You don't continue to mark up to the point of releasing the disc.

If you change the premise of the OP to the player throwing from behind the mini when the mini is in the inappropriate place I would argue that that is clearly a misplay under 811.F.1.b which defines that "type of misplay" as "Thrown from a lie other than that established by the thrown disc." Should it be? probably not- moving the marker seems to me like it should be a one shot issue rather than potentially 2.

If the mini "doesn't have the power to make all lies legal" then either it can not make ANY incorrect lie legal OR there needs to be a definition of what lies it CAN make legal. What differentiates one incorrect lie from another?
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Old 01-06-2020, 04:13 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
If you change the premise of the OP to the player throwing from behind the mini when the mini is in the inappropriate place I would argue that that is clearly a misplay under 811.F.1.b which defines that "type of misplay" as "Thrown from a lie other than that established by the thrown disc."
I agree with this (bold for emphasis).

Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
If the mini "doesn't have the power to make all lies legal" then either it can not make ANY incorrect lie legal OR there needs to be a definition of what lies it CAN make legal. What differentiates one incorrect lie from another?
And this (again, bold for emphasis).
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  #16  
Old 01-06-2020, 04:39 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
...What differentiates one incorrect lie from another?
Now you've gotten down to a soft spot in the rules.
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2020, 04:41 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
But the lie is still defined by the mini.
Is there anything else to support the 'lie moves with the mini marker' theory other than 802.05? I don't think it is conclusive enough on its own.
Quote:
802.05 Lie
D. In all other cases, the lie is a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc...
This can easily be read as being written with the assumption of a 'correctly placed' marker.
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  #18  
Old 01-06-2020, 05:34 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Is there anything else to support the 'lie moves with the mini marker' theory other than 802.05? I don't think it is conclusive enough on its own.

This can easily be read as being written with the assumption of a 'correctly placed' marker.
No rule could possibly stand up to "can easily be read as being written with the assumption of...". You could make any rule say anything you want with that qualification.

If there was to be an assumption that the mini was placed correctly, the rule would have said something like: "behind where the marker should be". If there was an overarching assumption that the marker is in the correct place, there would be no need for a penalty for placing it wrong.

I do place a high value on your opinions about rules, so I would like your feedback.

How would you clarify "In all other cases, the lie is a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc."?

Or, what do you see that makes you think there is an assumption that the mini was placed correctly?
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  #19  
Old 01-06-2020, 07:52 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
If there was an overarching assumption that the marker is in the correct place, there would be no need for a penalty for placing it wrong.
It cannot be in the right place until it has been placed to begin with. There is a rule stipulating how to do that and the players are the stewards of the rules in our sport. Were it placed incorrectly they would presumably have called a marking violation at the appropriate time. Once it has been placed the assumption that it has been placed correctly is necessary to the continuation of play. Moving it after it is placed is something completely different.
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  #20  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:29 PM
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teemkey teemkey is online now
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I think you guys need something like:
"The lie does not exist until either the in bounds thrown disc is declared as the marker or a mini-marker is placed according the the rules."
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