#21  
Old 11-28-2017, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Now we're getting beyond the text of the rules and into the spirit and intent of the rules, and potentially getting into DQ territory in a tournament setting.
It seems like this new definition of a practice throw puts a lot of pressure on a TD to enforce the "spirit & intent."

Consider this:

Player A has a 25' putt, and asks player B (his buddy) for a putter. Player B then stands 15' away and Player A returns B's putter using his normal putting style. Player A then uses his own putter to sink the putt. Perfectly legal by the new rule, but clearly the return was a practice putt, and not consonant with the intent of the rule.

If Player C reports the incident to me (the TD,) I'd declare players A & B get a one throw penalty. How do I justify imposing a penalty because of a violation of the "spirit & intent" of the new practice throw rule?
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2017, 06:09 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
It seems like this new definition of a practice throw puts a lot of pressure on a TD to enforce the "spirit & intent."

Consider this:

Player A has a 25' putt, and asks player B (his buddy) for a putter. Player B then stands 15' away and Player A returns B's putter using his normal putting style. Player A then uses his own putter to sink the putt. Perfectly legal by the new rule, but clearly the return was a practice putt, and not consonant with the intent of the rule.

If Player C reports the incident to me (the TD,) I'd declare players A & B get a one throw penalty. How do I justify imposing a penalty because of a violation of the "spirit & intent" of the new practice throw rule?
I don't think you necessarily impose a penalty there, because yes, by the letter of the rule, they can argue that it was not a practice throw.

I do think you can DQ the both of them for cheating, i.e. "willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play" (3.03.B.5). I think the act that makes that clear isn't the throw itself, it's asking Player B for the disc for the express purpose of "returning" it to him from 15 feet away.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:18 PM
Turnipseed Turnipseed is offline
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This whole discussion is a lot of nonsense (as at least some of the partakers are aware). A practice throw is going to be obvious. Any practice throw that finds a way to wiggle its way into legality is not going to return any meaningful information to the thrower. The rule only exists so that a player cannot excuse a poor throw as "practice". I know some of you have a hobby of playing word games with the rule book, but quit pretending that any of this has practical application.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:22 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
Right? I get the feeling they're joking and I like to know all the rules and loopholes... but that's not a loophole. And something I hope nobody would ever actually even try to do in any tournament or competitive setting


Yo, dude, keep it hush. We got a pool on how long it takes for JC to realize he's gettin' trolled.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I don't think you necessarily impose a penalty there, because yes, by the letter of the rule, they can argue that it was not a practice throw.

I do think you can DQ the both of them for cheating, i.e. "willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play" (3.03.B.5). I think the act that makes that clear isn't the throw itself, it's asking Player B for the disc for the express purpose of "returning" it to him from 15 feet away.
I have to agree that unless the PDGA clarifies the limitations of their unfortunate wording of a "non practice throw" in a Q&A, DQ may be the only recourse for this scenario. It's a tough call though, a DQ is serious.
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Old 11-29-2017, 07:14 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
I have to agree that unless the PDGA clarifies the limitations of their unfortunate wording of a "non practice throw" in a Q&A, DQ may be the only recourse for this scenario. It's a tough call though, a DQ is serious.
It is a tough call, but it is a pretty effective method to curb a lot of these types of "loophole" situations from becoming a problem. I think it is a big reason that most talk about loopholes in the rules is hypothetical rather than about actual occurrences on the course. Because a) most players are honest and b) the threat of DQ for intentional misuse of the rules looms, I very much doubt a player would actually try to bend the rules in any of the manners discussed in this thread in order to get legal practice throws.

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Old 11-29-2017, 01:51 PM
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Yeah, don't get pissy with me for picking apart the rules revisions. When the rule book goes through a major revision like it just has, it's better to run through these hypotheticals and find grey areas now then for them to potentially play out in real life and ruin someone's round.

Alright, so anything obviously looking to advance the lie would be considered a practice throw from "spirit and intent" (which I think should be relied on as little as possible with the text being the primary factor) but what about not so obvious?

Scenario A) A really wooded, downhill hole where an actual drop could actually yield a good throw. Who's to say that the player couldn't say "I meant to do that" if the accidental(?) drop actually rolled decently down the fairway?

Scenario B) Returning a disc to a player ahead of you that's beyond the target you're playing to. He/she could be beyond 5 meters and would save you a lot of walking/time if you flick rolled the disc to them and under the rules would seem to be legal as long as the disc doesn't travel more than 5 meters in the air. If you were deciding to throw a flick roller you might change your mind depending on how the "return" was successful.
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Old 11-29-2017, 03:56 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Which is why I think extending the practice throw threshold to 5 meters under the auspices of allowing a toss between players or to one's bag to "return" a disc was wholly unnecessary. To me, all it does is promote lazy behavior. Is it really so difficult to take the 4-5 steps to cover the <15 feet to hand a player his disc and thus remove any and all doubt? Is it really so difficult to walk to your bag to place a disc on/in/next to it rather than tossing the disc <15 feet in its general direction? Oh, it's not convenient to go to your bag to return a disc because your lie is in the scrub and it's tough to get in/out? Set the disc on the ground nearby, throw your shot, then pick it up (along with your marker disc and anything else you have with you) and bring it to your bag after your throw.

This is just another one of those changes that doesn't really do anything to improve game play, but does introduce new gray areas like are being discussed in this thread. I'm not sure what was wrong with the old rule and how it handled non-throws vs practice throws.

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Old 11-30-2017, 02:07 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Which is why I think extending the practice throw threshold to 5 meters...
How far should it be? Should players not be allowed to release a disc unless it is in the grasp of another player or touching the bag? Do they need to bend over and lay their unused driver on the ground when they've chosen to use the other disc?

Or do you have a way to define it without a specified distance?
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  #30  
Old 11-30-2017, 02:40 PM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
How far should it be? Should players not be allowed to release a disc unless it is in the grasp of another player or touching the bag? Do they need to bend over and lay their unused driver on the ground when they've chosen to use the other disc?

Or do you have a way to define it without a specified distance?
What was the pressing need to change it from 2 to 5 meters?

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