#61  
Old 03-29-2020, 04:03 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Well done! Most persuasive argument yet, I see no need to add anything more.
Can I point out that I already made that argument in the 16th post in this thread? (and Steve alluded to it in the 12th post)
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  #62  
Old 03-29-2020, 04:11 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
Can I point out that I already made that argument in the 16th post in this thread? (and Steve alluded to it in the 12th post)
Todd, several of us alluded to it in our responses. We were all talking procedure, though. Cheesy was the first one to reference there was a RULE that implied you must have a lie marked before you can take optional relief.

I get where teemkey was coming from and why that argument persuaded him.

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  #63  
Old 03-29-2020, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
Can I point out that I already made that argument in the 16th post in this thread? (and Steve alluded to it in the 12th post)
What Aray said.

But sorry, no slight intended. I probably missed a lot of posters I might have directly addressed.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
...
True, but B chose, without a need, to invoke a penalty. A was already forced to take one. B could just as easily, walked up to his lie and tossed a disc to the exact spot that A took optional relief from. Surely then, them both throwing 3 from the same spot doesn't bother you.
Picture WACO #17...

Let's say B's disc is at the exact same point on the OB line where A's disc crossed the line. They both take 1m relief: why is A then permitted get choose a more advantageous lie than B? (other than the text of 802.02E, of course)

I suspect that the RC had WACO #18 in mind, and #17 is an unintended consequence.
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Old 03-29-2020, 06:39 PM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Picture WACO #17...

Let's say B's disc is at the exact same point on the OB line where A's disc crossed the line. They both take 1m relief: why is A then permitted get choose a more advantageous lie than B? (other than the text of 802.02E, of course)

I suspect that the RC had WACO #18 in mind, and #17 is an unintended consequence.
So, if I understand, you are saying lying two from farther from the target is more advantageous than lying one from nearer to the target.

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Old 03-29-2020, 07:13 PM
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So, if I understand, you are saying lying two from farther from the target is more advantageous than lying one from nearer to the target.
What I'm saying is that being able to choose your preferred lie (before & after OR) with no penalty is advantageous (vs. taking a penalty to have the choice).
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Old 03-29-2020, 08:04 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
Picture WACO #17...

Let's say B's disc is at the exact same point on the OB line where A's disc crossed the line. They both take 1m relief: why is A then permitted get choose a more advantageous lie than B? (other than the text of 802.02E, of course)

I suspect that the RC had WACO #18 in mind, and #17 is an unintended consequence.
I suspect the RC was being generous in their overall strategy to not "double penalize" a player. You already took an OB stroke, and now your lie is on this unstable muddy hillside crammed underneath a big bush. In a scenario like this, the player might be forced to just pitch backward a few feet to clear himself out of the trouble area. Free optional relief will sometimes (but not always) give the player the freedom to get away from that second "penalty".

And B would still have the advantage in that he hasn't taken a penalty stroke. He can pitch backwards (at the cost of that throw itself), or he can take optional relief (at the cost of a penalty), or he can pitch sideways/forward.

Last edited by ToddL; 03-29-2020 at 08:06 PM.
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  #68  
Old 03-29-2020, 08:52 PM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
What I'm saying is that being able to choose your preferred lie (before & after OR) with no penalty is advantageous (vs. taking a penalty to have the choice).
Will anyone ever be tempted to kick that disc OB to get that advantage?
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Old 03-29-2020, 09:15 PM
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Will anyone ever be tempted to kick that disc OB to get that advantage?
Well no, or more accurately it doesn't matter. Assuming the post-OR lie is your goal, IB or OB you'd be lying 2 either way (after one throw and one penalty).

Remember we started with the OP asking if Matt Bell should have taken OR after his OB tee shot on WACO #17 because Bell's next throw went OB. The premise of ARay's question is that OR would have offered Bell a more favorable angle to land a forehand IB on the peninsula.
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  #70  
Old 03-29-2020, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
I suspect the RC was being generous in their overall strategy to not "double penalize" a player. You already took an OB stroke, and now your lie is on this unstable muddy hillside crammed underneath a big bush. In a scenario like this, the player might be forced to just pitch backward a few feet to clear himself out of the trouble area. Free optional relief will sometimes (but not always) give the player the freedom to get away from that second "penalty".

And B would still have the advantage in that he hasn't taken a penalty stroke. He can pitch backwards (at the cost of that throw itself), or he can take optional relief (at the cost of a penalty), or he can pitch sideways/forward.
IMO, over generous. (See my quick recap of ARay's OP in the post above.)
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