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Old 01-11-2017, 01:13 AM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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Default Putting a marker on the tee pad!?!?!?

I was watching a tourney vid of the UNC course in Chapel Hill and on one hole, Chase Jernigan put a mini disc on the tee, seemingly to aid in orientation (this tee is a big slab of concrete that was probably not a tee pad for disc golf originally). It didn't help his shot much here but I was wondering the legality and if anyone had ever seen it.

It's hole 16 in this video, ~35 minutes in:




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Old 01-11-2017, 06:56 AM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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Quote:


801.03 Artificial Devices

A. During a round, a player shall not use any artificial device that may directly assist in making a throw, except those devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages, or gauze) and medical items (such as knee or ankle braces). Placing an object as a directional aid is not allowed. [...]
Emphasis added. If the mini is indeed placed as a directional aid, it's illegal. The penalty is two penalty throws according to 801.03 C:
Quote:
A player shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed at any time during a round to be using an illegal artificial device. A player who repeatedly uses an illegal device may be subject to disqualification in accordance with Section 3.3 of the PDGA Competition Manual.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:56 PM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
Emphasis added. If the mini is indeed placed as a directional aid, it's illegal. The penalty is two penalty throws according to 801.03 C:
Here's what wrong with that part. First off, there is no definition for a 'directional aid.' So all you have to do is say you put the mini down for any other reason (superstition, etc) and you're off the hook since the plaintiff can't define what a directional aid is. Secondly, artificial devices are conditioned as being illegal due to 'direct assistance,' with an emphasis on directly. Putting a mini down on the tee for whatever reason is more arguably indirect assistance unless he's touching the mini. Thirdly, does the mini qualify as an object? The mini is defined in the rulebook as: A small disc, not used in play, which may be used to mark the location of the lie. The whole tee is the lie, so he's just focusing on part for precision.
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Old 01-11-2017, 02:20 PM
loki the trickster loki the trickster is offline
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What if any pourpse would a directional aid serve? And how to know what it is when one is used?

Second i think the mini on the teepad serves more as a line up here aid. Even as he stated in the video its a visual aid.
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Old 01-11-2017, 02:51 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by loki the trickster View Post
What if any pourpse would a directional aid serve? And how to know what it is when one is used?
The most obvious use of a directional aid is on a blind shot (say, over a hill), placing one's bag or stool in a position that gives you a reference as to what direction the target is located.

The situation in the video is a gray area at best. While using a mini on a tee is unorthodox, it is a legal "aid" when used in that manner anywhere else on the course. Seems silly to decide it isn't legal on the tee.

If he stepped on it, would that make a difference? It would be no different than a towel or pad, which is specifically allowed to be used on a tee. Then all he has to claim is that he intended to step on it and missed (I've seen people place a towel for traction and miss it on their run-up).
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:14 PM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The most obvious use of a directional aid is on a blind shot (say, over a hill), placing one's bag or stool in a position that gives you a reference as to what direction the target is located.
It's that scenario the rule was originally added for. The rest IMHO is trying to extend the rule too far.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:23 PM
ILUVSMGS18 ILUVSMGS18 is offline
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A little off topic but is rattling the chains if some one is in the middle of trees in order for them to orient themself due to everything looking similar a directional device?
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:07 PM
loki the trickster loki the trickster is offline
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Originally Posted by ILUVSMGS18 View Post
A little off topic but is rattling the chains if some one is in the middle of trees in order for them to orient themself due to everything looking similar a directional device?
It probably could be argued that it is illegal... but the person most likely to rattle the chains is a competitor
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:15 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by BrotherDave View Post
Here's what wrong with that part. First off, there is no definition for a 'directional aid.' So all you have to do is say you put the mini down for any other reason (superstition, etc) and you're off the hook since the plaintiff can't define what a directional aid is. Secondly, artificial devices are conditioned as being illegal due to 'direct assistance,' with an emphasis on directly. Putting a mini down on the tee for whatever reason is more arguably indirect assistance unless he's touching the mini. Thirdly, does the mini qualify as an object? The mini is defined in the rulebook as: A small disc, not used in play, which may be used to mark the location of the lie. The whole tee is the lie, so he's just focusing on part for precision.
I hear all of that. There are a lot of situations where the offending player can argue, "you don't know my intent" when he's called on something like that. But let me add another tag to the situation. Player C lines up a shot on a tightly wooded hole. He finds the line he needs to throw his left-handed slight turnover backhand on to make the gap. He then places his mini down, right on the tee pad on that line. Before he throws I say, "hey whoa, you can't really use a directional aid on a throw," and he replies just like you said that it's not why he put it down, he just forgot he still had his mini in his hand and dropped it down.

Two holes later the exact same thing happens and he gives me the exact same answer. and I then say, "no problem man, let me get that mini out of the way for you. I wouldn't want you to get hurt accidentally," and I grab the mini before he can do anything and put it in his bag.

Now what happens????
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:24 PM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
I hear all of that. There are a lot of situations where the offending player can argue, "you don't know my intent" when he's called on something like that. But let me add another tag to the situation. Player C lines up a shot on a tightly wooded hole. He finds the line he needs to throw his left-handed slight turnover backhand on to make the gap. He then places his mini down, right on the tee pad on that line. Before he throws I say, "hey whoa, you can't really use a directional aid on a throw," and he replies just like you said that it's not why he put it down, he just forgot he still had his mini in his hand and dropped it down.

Two holes later the exact same thing happens and he gives me the exact same answer. and I then say, "no problem man, let me get that mini out of the way for you. I wouldn't want you to get hurt accidentally," and I grab the mini before he can do anything and put it in his bag.

Now what happens????
He tells you to leave the mini where it is because it is for feng shui. Developing positive chi is vital to his game and he can't have his feng shui out of whack. Besides, you can't accuse him of using a directional aid unless you define it but there's no definition.
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