#11  
Old 07-26-2021, 04:52 PM
timothy42b timothy42b is offline
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Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
Replying just to +1 this.

Not all pros can dictate how the throw works very well... but Paige actually can (and her understanding shows in her near-flawless form).
Maybe i got confused by that, I'll rewatch those and rethink that. thanks.
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  #12  
Old 07-26-2021, 04:55 PM
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azplaya25 azplaya25 is offline
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Love seeing SW22’s drills in action. If the hedge behind Anthon was a wall, he’s basically doing the same drill.


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  #13  
Old 07-27-2021, 03:18 PM
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SocraDeez SocraDeez is offline
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Originally Posted by Waddball View Post
The "rocking the hips" thread led me down a "shift but don't rotate" path, and I found myself jamming up and slightly hurting my back. Probably somewhat to do with poor flexibility as well.
This happened to me, too. It's funny how the fealty to certain swing philosophies seems to form along party lines of the various forces at work in the throw - e.g. "Spin & Throw!" (Rotational), "Shift & Throw!" (Lateral). I guess we're still waiting for the "Hop & Throw!" (Vertical) guys to come down from the hills and start a Facebook group that "does not exist to debate the merits of the method but rather to refine each other’s abilities in its execution."

Beware those who say there is a One True Way. Beware those who sell secret knowledge. Beware those who disallow discussion on the "merits of the method".* Unfortunately, the truth is probably much messier & more difficult to disentangle. But that's OK! Really; it's better this way for things to be not so simple & explicable.

*
Beware the things I say, too. Do not blindly accept their truth. Engage with the ideas (or the actions/ motions). Evaluate them. Form your own opinions. I'm wrong a lot, man. Ain't no shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waddball View Post
I suspect a good throw clears the front hip for the swing, but not in too exaggerated a way. Sort of a "just enough" turn. I find it's really hard to focus on clearing that hip and not also end up spinning out too much
Given that we're trying to maximize the energy of the last link in a kinematic chain, "just enough" and "not in too exaggerated a way" is generally really good advice when working on your disc golf swing. You don't want to supercharge one link in the chain at the expense of another.

In regards to clearing the front hip properly, though, I'd say the range of movement is pretty consistent - that is, if you do it right. You can definitely add speed to the motion, but to me it feels like the range stays about the same regardless of throw distance. In other words, when you learn how to clear the front hip properly, you can't really turn it too much or too little (maybe because properly clearing is pretty close to maximal movement range for the hip? I'm not sure exactly).

I mentioned above that you can add speed to the motion, but I want to emphasize at the outset here that it's not really an active hip movement feeling. One final note on terms (in my usage at least): To "clear" the front hip is to move the hip around the front leg/ femur toward the target. This hip swivel or motion around the leg is the same motion that your hips perform when you walk forward. To clear the front hip "properly" - properly, in the sense of "most powerfully" - in the disc golf swing, we want to try and maximize the movement range of the front hip as it moves around the front femur*.

*
I'm focusing on the front hip feeling in the forward swing here, but please keep in mind that, given the symmetry of the disc golf swing, a lot of the same stuff happens in the backswing for the back hip. SW22 creatively demonstrates this principle here:



Still with me? All right. Here we go:

Try thinking about your hip flexibility or hip range of movement as something that can be manipulated up & down on a vertical plane in addition to the more obvious horizontal/ rotational plane. An analogy might be how you might manipulate a stubborn couch to find the right angle that allows it to fit through a skinny doorway*.

*


Here are some exercises* that help to demonstrate this.

*
For anybody following along, I highly encourage you to actually get up and do the body motion exercises that are sometimes suggested on these technique forums. Even the ones that seem only vaguely related to throwing a disc! It's not enough to just read it or to watch it. You have to feel it. Personally, it took me way too long to learn this lesson. (You don't have to watch the stupid, semi-related videos I like to include in posts, though).

(1) First - to get a baseline or "control" feeling for your range of hip movement as they swivel around your femurs - stand up and, with both feet planted on the ground a little more than shoulder-width apart, "spin" your hips back and forth a few times, first to the right and then to the left and so on. Let your arms swing as you spin with your hands tracing the outline of an imaginary hula hoop around your waist. Focus on the front hip feeling as it comes around your front leg.

(2) Now, let's change the up & down or vertical plane (rotate that couch, baby!) of the hips by only standing on one leg to feel how that affects the potential range of movement for our hips. So, get on whichever leg is the lead plant leg for your swing. First, lift the off-leg up high as if you are doing a high knee exercise. This will force the front hip to clear (or come around the front femur) a bit for you to maintain balance and not fall over. Focus on the feeling. It should feel like there is a smaller range of motion for the front hip to clear than there was when you were just spinning with both feet on the ground.

(3) Next, stand on only your lead-leg again, but let's drop the off-leg down this time instead of raising it*. Let the off-leg hang while you try to funnel all your weight into the heel of the lead-leg. Really try to compress into the ground and squat into the foot contacting the ground. This is the same exercise described earlier in this thread for the back leg during the backswing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post
Try this: stand on one leg, whichever is the "back" leg in your swing. Try to funnel all your weight into your heel; I mean really try to push straight down through the ground toward the center of the Earth with that heel. What did your "back" hip do? It should have rotated counterclockwise around the femur of the one leg you are standing on. It allowed you to push against the ground with more force by coiling or rotating or loading!
Focus on the feeling of your lead hip in this position. It should be the most "intense" of the exercises. SW22 has described it at times as producing a profound crease in the pants. This feeling is the full range of movement that you want to feel when the front hip clears in the disc golf swing. To emphasize: This is also the front hip position that allows you to produce the most leverage or push-against-the-ground-the-most. In other words, it allows for the best brace. All these things are more related and interconnected than they are different and separable.

*
For further reference, check out this quick video of Adarian Barr (running coach/ movement theory hobbyist) demonstrating the motion I mean:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CG7teRkHMpa/

(4) Finally, let's incorporate the last exercise into the first to compare and evaluate. Do the off-leg dangle a couple more times to get the feeling of the full front hip clear. Then, stand on both feet again & spin your hips around back and forth a couple times, but then as you're coming around to the front side of your swing drop into the lead foot as you did in the off-leg dangle. Try to reproduce the feeling of the full front hip clear that you felt when standing on one leg. This should create instant, irresistible torso acceleration & the feeling of good, firm brace & balance on the front leg.

Play around with how hard/ suddenly you drop into the front heel. This is how you increase/ decrease the speed of the front hip clearing motion. But the range of movement should feel about the same.

Hope this helps.

Disclaimer:

This is not a "drill" that replicates exactly what the disc golf swing should be. This is an exercise to exaggerate a feeling in the disc golf swing. The final # (4) exercise as I described it does not ask that you also "shift from behind".

Postscript:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Pacific View Post
Ken Climo in some of the earliest disc golf form videos and whatnot was always talking about how he keeps his trailing back leg behind and doesn't swing it out around until well after the disc has left his hand.
Once upon a time, I struggled mightily with attempted Climo-caliber-back-leg-kick. And I now realize that it was in part due to all the above: not properly bracing on the lead leg w/ off-leg dangle & not getting the full range of movement of the front hip clearing, which made it near impossible to allow the back leg to swing in balance behind me like the Champ does so beautifully.


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  #14  
Old 07-27-2021, 04:24 PM
Waddball Waddball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post
In regards to clearing the front hip properly, though, I'd say the range of movement is pretty consistent - that is, if you do it right. You can definitely add speed to the motion, but to me it feels like the range stays about the same regardless of throw distance. In other words, when you learn how to clear the front hip properly, you can't really turn it too much or too little (maybe because properly clearing is pretty close to maximal movement range for the hip? I'm not sure exactly).
What I was referring to was when I try to "lead with the hip" and I rotate my lead hip (RHBH) too much so the trailing hip/leg swings around too fast. When this happens I rotate quickly but the trail leg isn't counterbalancing anything; it feels light and easy to "kick" through.

I've also tried smashing my left leg into the right and staying linear (jamming), which was...not great. I've also had the good clearing motion you go into detail about, but it's harder to find than I expected it to be.

So I suspect you're right: done properly, there's only so much motion possible. But you're vastly understimating my creativity in finding ways to do things improperly!
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  #15  
Old 07-27-2021, 07:51 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post
This happened to me, too. It's funny how the fealty to certain swing philosophies seems to form along party lines of the various forces at work in the throw - e.g. "Spin & Throw!" (Rotational), "Shift & Throw!" (Lateral). I guess we're still waiting for the "Hop & Throw!" (Vertical) guys to come down from the hills and start a Facebook group that "does not exist to debate the merits of the method but rather to refine each other’s abilities in its execution."

Beware those who say there is a One True Way. Beware those who sell secret knowledge. Beware those who disallow discussion on the "merits of the method".* Unfortunately, the truth is probably much messier & more difficult to disentangle. But that's OK! Really; it's better this way for things to be not so simple & explicable.
Shift & Throw


Spin & Throw


Hop & Throw


Skate & Throw


Walk & Throw


Windmill & Throw


Pendulum & Throw


Unfold & Throw


Open to Closed & Throw


No Step & Throw

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  #16  
Old 07-28-2021, 06:26 AM
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Nick Pacific Nick Pacific is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraDeez View Post

Once upon a time, I struggled mightily with attempted Climo-caliber-back-leg-kick. And I now realize that it was in part due to all the above: not properly bracing on the lead leg w/ off-leg dangle & not getting the full range of movement of the front hip clearing, which made it near impossible to allow the back leg to swing in balance behind me like the Champ does so beautifully.

Yep, there is the video. That whole session was good, I remember seeing it early on in YouTube, it was one of the first discgolf technique videos I ever saw. It's interesting how the champ teaches it. It's like he's figured out this huge piece of the form puzzle, but he can't quite articulate the why and how's of why it works. Probably because it's something he just figured out without being taught, just through sheer reps over the years.

I suspect he had to develop that because the early discs were so flippy, that the only way to throw them on a hyzer with 60+ mph of speed was to make sure you didn't yank over on them and really follow through with hyzer angle. If your hips open early you'll end up following through either flat or even on anhyzer angle.

All this new stable fast plastic nowadays can really mask bad form because the discs are so stable they're partially self correcting. A 175g star destroyer is going to hyzer out no matter how poor your form is, but a DX cheeta absolutely needs to be thrown properly to get a full flex.

Those old discs had huge advantages for the players coming up throwing them. They forced you to learn proper technique, and really exposed bad flaws in your form right away. The new discs nowadays while being much more durable, and your getting a lot more bang for your buck, are a double edged sword because they can mask poor technique for years.

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  #17  
Old 07-28-2021, 08:13 AM
timothy42b timothy42b is offline
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Aha! Look at the gif sidewinder posted of Schusterich.

He moves laterally back with no hip rotation.

As he shifts weight forward, he counterrotates. His back hip moves behind him.

As he plants, he rotates hips forward to throw. ("as" covers some interval of time, not sure exactly of the sequence.)

There is a gif of Paige doing the same thing recently, I looked in many threads but couldn't find it.

However there are also pros who start by moving the back hip behind, and ball golfers seem to do that.
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