Disc Golf Course Review Confused again by sequence of backhand hip turn
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#1
07-25-2021, 12:37 PM
 timothy42b Birdie Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Virginia Courses Played: 1 Posts: 301 Niced 53 Times in 36 Posts
Confused again by sequence of backhand hip turn

HUB's series makes the point about the back hip rotating forward, counterclockwise for an RBHB. So do some of the recent golf videos including that one keeping the back leg back. The Scott Lynn video talked about three forces: lateral, rotational, vertical.

But I've now confused myself about when. There's a GIF of Paige that I tried and failed to find, but it clearly shows her shifting laterally back without hip turn, shifting laterally forward with counterclockwise hip rotation, then throwing with clockwise rotation.

So assuming standstill or one step throwing rather than X step, does the hip coil happen on the way back, after the weight is back, on the way forward, or after the weight is forward?
#2
07-25-2021, 12:59 PM
 RowingBoats Birdie Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 268 Niced 218 Times in 117 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by timothy42b HUB's series makes the point about the back hip rotating forward, counterclockwise for an RBHB. So do some of the recent golf videos including that one keeping the back leg back. The Scott Lynn video talked about three forces: lateral, rotational, vertical. But I've now confused myself about when. There's a GIF of Paige that I tried and failed to find, but it clearly shows her shifting laterally back without hip turn, shifting laterally forward with counterclockwise hip rotation, then throwing with clockwise rotation. So assuming standstill or one step throwing rather than X step, does the hip coil happen on the way back, after the weight is back, on the way forward, or after the weight is forward?
I am not an expert, but the way I think of it personally is not at all as a rotation of the hips. The "Rocking the Hips" thread is probably what you are after for all of that though.

I think the doorframe drill (Properly understood) is the best way to feel how the hips are pulling everything through...but you have to leave the doorframe behind and play with the core concept of tension without the frame.

Its hard for me to go back in time and not understand some of this now, but I think if you stand there with your body in the doorframe position, throwing shoulder further back than trailing shoulder, etc, then try to build tension between your upper and lower body, you'll feel how the hips are pulling it all through. To me doing this statically engages my abs/obliques very heavily, so that might be a decent sign to know you are on the right track.

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#3
07-25-2021, 06:39 PM
 jenb * Ace Member * Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: DFW TX USA Years Playing: 16.2 Courses Played: 90 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 3,523 Niced 93 Times in 53 Posts

In this video, Paige says your hips should not begin to rotate until after the disc is released.

#4
07-25-2021, 08:31 PM
 SocraDeez Bogey Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Michigan Years Playing: 3.3 Courses Played: 126 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 78 Niced 212 Times in 59 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by timothy42b The Scott Lynn video talked about three forces: lateral, rotational, vertical.
Try thinking about the disc golf swing as a kind of spring mechanism (and especially the hips). You've got the general order of forces right during the forward swing - lateral, rotational, vertical - but, since we're thinking in terms of springs now, we've got to remember to at some point load/ push down on the springs so that they store energy for us to be released in the throw. Part of the load/ pushing down on the spring is the counterclockwise rotation of the back hip around your back femur and back toward the target that you described.

So then, before the series of lateral, rotational, & vertical forces go to work in the forward swing, we've got to load up our springs with energy. Almost all of the purposeful, active rotation of the hips in the disc golf swing actually happens in the backswing - when you load the hips by turning into the backside of the swing frame and really pushing into the ground backwards (and somewhat diagonally) away from the target. The trick, though, is to not release the energy you load with the hips in the backswing before you are posted up on the frontside of the swing frame (i.e. after the lateral move). This is essentially what is meant by "shifting from behind". If your hips start to open sooner, then you're leaking a lot of the energy you worked so hard to load. If you successfully transition to the frontside of the swing frame with the hips still loaded, then they will pretty much automatically open to release the stored energy - just like a spring when you move your finger off it after pushing down! This is the "rotational" force that follows the "lateral" one.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by timothy42b So assuming standstill or one step throwing rather than X step, does the hip coil happen on the way back, after the weight is back, on the way forward, or after the weight is forward?
The hip coil or rotation or load in the backswing is an active ingredient in the leverage you are creating against the ground (i.e. it's an active ingredient in "moving your weight back", but I strongly encourage you to think about it more in terms of ground pushes vs. moving your body weight around). Try this: stand on one leg, whichever is the "back" leg in your swing. Try to funnel all your weight into your heel; I mean really try to push straight down through the ground toward the center of the Earth with that heel. What did your "back" hip do? It should have rotated counterclockwise around the femur of the one leg you are standing on. It allowed you to push against the ground with more force by coiling or rotating or loading!

So, you should be coiling or rotating or loading those hips as you create leverage against the ground (or as you "move your weight back") in the backswing on the backside of the swing frame. Your hips help you load more effectively into that backfoot.

Now, does the hip coil or rotation or load happen on the way forward, too? Definitely - because the backswing is still happening on the way forward, too. ("On the way back" & "on the way forward" are not quite as distinguishable or separable as you might think). Here's that Paige clip:

Hope that helps. Please forgive me for any sins against the laws of thermodynamics that I may have committed in throwing around terms like springs and forces and energy etc. But I think you get the gist.

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Last edited by SocraDeez; 07-25-2021 at 08:36 PM.
#5
07-26-2021, 08:17 AM
 Nick Pacific Eagle Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 592 Niced 825 Times in 377 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jenb In this video, Paige says your hips should not begin to rotate until after the disc is released. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TyV8411dObw
This is really helpful thank you, I saw it a long time ago and never really thought much about the hip parts until it was mentioned here.
#6
07-26-2021, 08:21 AM
 Nick Pacific Eagle Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 592 Niced 825 Times in 377 Posts

Ken Climo in some of the earliest disc golf form videos and whatnot was always talking about how he keeps his trailing back leg behind and doesn't swing it out around until well after the disc has left his hand. I think the champ realized that this helped him shift his hips laterally and not rotationally and round them.

He probably figured this out on his own over the years and simply put 2 and 2 together that he got more power doing thus, but inadvertently perhaps didn't realize that the big reason why that works so well is that it sort of forces you to rock your hips and shift them laterally. If your back trailing leg swings out wide with your pull through it will automatically open your hips and you'll rotate them instead of rocking with them.

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#7
07-26-2021, 08:54 AM
 timothy42b Birdie Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Virginia Courses Played: 1 Posts: 301 Niced 53 Times in 36 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nick Pacific This is really helpful thank you, I saw it a long time ago and never really thought much about the hip parts until it was mentioned here.
Paige's form is incredible, in my opinion.

But also i don't think she does what she says she does or think she does.

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#8
07-26-2021, 10:41 AM
 SocraDeez Bogey Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Michigan Years Playing: 3.3 Courses Played: 126 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 78 Niced 212 Times in 59 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jenb In this video, Paige says your hips should not begin to rotate until after the disc is released.
Thanks for sharing the video. My favorite part: "The things I think about daily, like even when I'm in the grocery store or like anywhere where I can't like go practice, I'm still thinking about my [disc golf throw]."

Just want to clarify for folks that Paige is not talking about hip rotation there but rather the "rounding" or coming around of the hips (really the thing your hips are attached to, the pelvis). Here's the quote:

"In the follow through, that's when your hips round but not until then...[The hips] should go forward, and then round after you've let it go, but not until then".

Your hips do need to rotate (that is, swivel around your femurs in the same motion they perform when you walk forward) before you release the disc - the hips are the main link or translator of lower body (or ground) energy into torso energy. The hips rotate in place around your braced pelvis, and then (after the disc releases) the leftover energy of that motion brings your back hip / non-target side of pelvis around toward the target in front of the other leg.

The rotation of the hips also helps create the space for you to swing the disc, which means they must rotate prior to disc release.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by timothy42b But also i don't think she does what she says she does or think she does.
Sounds like you might already have your mind made up, or someone made it up for you. But I strongly disagree with the sentiment that Paige Pierce "does not do what she says she does". From everything I've seen: she's a great teacher (especially for a Professional!) and clearly thinks seriously about swing mechanics.

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#9
07-26-2021, 11:45 AM
 Waddball Bogey Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Colorado Courses Played: 1 Posts: 86 Niced 28 Times in 22 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SocraDeez "In the follow through, that's when your hips round but not until then...[The hips] should go forward, and then round after you've let it go, but not until then". Your hips do need to rotate (that is, swivel around your femurs in the same motion they perform when you walk forward) before you release the disc - the hips are the main link or translator of lower body (or ground) energy into torso energy. The hips rotate in place around your braced pelvis, and then (after the disc releases) the leftover energy of that motion brings your back hip / non-target side of pelvis around toward the target in front of the other leg. The rotation of the hips also helps create the space for you to swing the disc, which means they must rotate prior to disc release.
This seems like what I've observed as well. You can slow down most of the pros and just barely see it. I think maybe snapshot #5 of this great thread is a solid example.

The "rocking the hips" thread led me down a "shift but don't rotate" path, and I found myself jamming up and slightly hurting my back. Probably somewhat to do with poor flexibility as well.

I suspect a good throw clears the front hip for the swing, but not in too exaggerated a way. Sort of a "just enough" turn. I find it's really hard to focus on clearing that hip and not also end up spinning out too much, or feel like I'm yanking instead of smoothly accelerating.

#10
07-26-2021, 02:53 PM
 drk_evns Birdie Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Holland, MI Courses Played: 36 Posts: 481 Niced 470 Times in 206 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SocraDeez Sounds like you might already have your mind made up, or someone made it up for you. But I strongly disagree with the sentiment that Paige Pierce "does not do what she says she does". From everything I've seen: she's a great teacher (especially for a Professional!) and clearly thinks seriously about swing mechanics.

Not all pros can dictate how the throw works very well... but Paige actually can (and her understanding shows in her near-flawless form).