#51  
Old 02-26-2021, 04:22 PM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Since disc golf is about shaping throws around vertical obstacles, free relief sideways was thought by the early rule makers as changing the shot shape for your next throw, possibly easier, versus potentially retaining the shot shape required but adding more distance by taking relief back on the LOP. It was well thought out.

However, if the player is taking a penalty, it might be a lot simpler to move sideways no closer to the hole than the default being last point inbounds, if the group can see, retrieve or properly estimate where the disc is located in the hazard. If not, then last point inbounds should become the primary but not the only lie re-location option upon being penalized.
Sometimes the rules give you a break and sometimes they penalize you if you use them, like in the case if the nearest relief was behind a tree, when otherwise it is clear. Casual water is another term taken from ball golf, which they then proceed to garble up the rules and the relief. You think they don't shape shots in ball golf? Do you think people can bend and lean to improve their angle in ball golf? It is ridiculous to base a rule on the chance it may improve someone lines when that usually isn't the case. It is not fair to require a player to stand in foot deep water, with the only other option being throwing it from 100 feet further away, and also forbid them from removing their shoes. PGA tour players who play for millions are allowed to remove their shoes when the situation dictates.

I swear it is the marijuana talking again, especially in regard to this rule.
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  #52  
Old 02-26-2021, 04:42 PM
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Sometimes the rules give you a break and sometimes they penalize you if you use them, like in the case if the nearest relief was behind a tree, when otherwise it is clear. Casual water is another term taken from ball golf, which they then proceed to garble up the rules and the relief. You think they don't shape shots in ball golf? Do you think people can bend and lean to improve their angle in ball golf? It is ridiculous to base a rule on the chance it may improve someone lines when that usually isn't the case. It is not fair to require a player to stand in foot deep water, with the only other option being throwing it from 100 feet further away, and also forbid them from removing their shoes. PGA tour players who play for millions are allowed to remove their shoes when the situation dictates.

I swear it is the marijuana talking again, especially in regard to this rule.
The appropriate play mechanisms for disc golf are different from ball golf. This is one of them. Casual relief is typically not penalized in both. However, disc golfers can play from many casual relief areas because their lie doesn't prevent them from throwing whereas most if not all casual areas would be difficult to play from in ball golf. When you regularly have two playable choices, albeit one soggier, ideally you don't want the rules making the relief choice a better line by default, especially since some casual relief areas contain tall foliage. Better if the default is to move straight back on LOP to retain the line.

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  #53  
Old 02-26-2021, 11:06 PM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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It was well thought out.
I disagree.


Do you really think not getting your shoes wet is a valid reason for this rule?

If it is a safety issue, how can you explain the difference in how the rules address a 10x10' circle with 1 inch of water verse a 10x10' circle of mud?

Are you ok with the fact that a player can take advantage of this rule to get a better line to the target?

Are you ok with a potential 1 stroke advantage being given to the player landing in a puddle verse the player 5 feet away, but not in a puddle?

Would you say that a puddle is a more dangerous lie verse the middle of a thorn bush, side of a steep slope or in a bed of uneven rocks/stones?

IMO, take the rule out completely and let puddles fall into the category of other "bad" lies. There are plenty of dangerous lies we willfully play from and puddles seem low on the "dangerous" level in comparison to those other lies. It is literally called "Casual Water".
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  #54  
Old 02-27-2021, 12:00 AM
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I disagree.


Do you really think not getting your shoes wet is a valid reason for this rule?

If it is a safety issue, how can you explain the difference in how the rules address a 10x10' circle with 1 inch of water verse a 10x10' circle of mud?

Are you ok with the fact that a player can take advantage of this rule to get a better line to the target?

Are you ok with a potential 1 stroke advantage being given to the player landing in a puddle verse the player 5 feet away, but not in a puddle?

Would you say that a puddle is a more dangerous lie verse the middle of a thorn bush, side of a steep slope or in a bed of uneven rocks/stones?

IMO, take the rule out completely and let puddles fall into the category of other "bad" lies. There are plenty of dangerous lies we willfully play from and puddles seem low on the "dangerous" level in comparison to those other lies. It is literally called "Casual Water".
- Yes.
- Not a safety issue but temporary circumstances, i.e., use of the word "casual" meaning not part of the regular course design.
- No one can directly take advantage of this rule unless they are accurate enough to land on a spot where relief would give them a better lie. And if they were that accurate, they should be able to land in a better lie in the first place.
- That's what OB lines are all about. Land a quarter inch away and get a penalty. I'd like to see the penalty be less but that's a different game rule.
- Casual water can range from an ocean (it has been in some events) to a puddle. More consistent to treat them the same IF the designer or TD decides to do so. What you overlook is the discretion the designer or TD has in wisely marking problem areas with appropriate hazard rules. The basic rules are there to be consistent in the way they are played when the player lacks additional specifications from the TD.

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Old 02-28-2021, 01:15 AM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
- Yes.
- Not a safety issue but temporary circumstances, i.e., use of the word "casual" meaning not part of the regular course design.
- No one can directly take advantage of this rule unless they are accurate enough to land on a spot where relief would give them a better lie. And if they were that accurate, they should be able to land in a better lie in the first place.
- That's what OB lines are all about. Land a quarter inch away and get a penalty. I'd like to see the penalty be less but that's a different game rule.
- Casual water can range from an ocean (it has been in some events) to a puddle. More consistent to treat them the same IF the designer or TD decides to do so. What you overlook is the discretion the designer or TD has in wisely marking problem areas with appropriate hazard rules. The basic rules are there to be consistent in the way they are played when the player lacks additional specifications from the TD.

- Really? Wet shoes - not a legitimate reason for a rule, IMO.

- So, safety is not a consideration. Good to know - that makes it even less reasonable to have this rule.

- ANY player can easily take advantage of the rule, disregarding accuracy. If in a Casual Water area, you can simply move back in the LOP to manipulate your line to the target. You are not required to go to the back edge of the water, just to where you deem "Ok". So, getting a preferred angle to the target is available. The player standing in a puddle gets to use the entire length of that puddle as a lie - to pick and choose the best line. They are not on unsafe ground (Per your not a safety issue comment), so why would they get to CHOOSE their lie?

- Oceans, lakes, ponds, streams and their ilk should just be "Water" - adding puddles to the equation makes it less consistent. As you mentioned, these areas are temporary, unlike the prior examples. (I know some streams and ponds dry up, speaking generally)

__________________________________

I do not believe this has much to do with the course designer - And am not overlooking anything that I am aware of - Oceans, lakes, ponds, streams and their ilk are part of the course designers consideration, yes. Puddles that appear due to rain, or ones that remain for periods of time are not related to the designer. (I am aware they can avoid areas with the foresight of problems, hope they do so)

As for the TD - yes, if the area is DANGEROUS or UNPLAYABLE then "wisely marking problem areas with appropriate hazard rules" is appropriate - These areas (Puddles) are neither.

IMO, Casual Water should not include puddles. All players just play from where your disc lands in these puddles and any manipulation of lie and line are gone. That seems much more fair and consistent.

I have played in events where what could be considered a new stream appears from a downpour. That is moving water and could be dangerous to a player. In that circumstance I can understand a TD deeming that area for Casual Relief.

Other lies offer chances to rip your skin apart, fall down a hill or break an ankle on uneven footing. I just can not grasp allowing the ample opportunity to manipulate your lie and line to the target over a lie that, at worst, gets your shoes wet.
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:39 AM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
- Really? Wet shoes - not a legitimate reason for a rule, IMO.

- So, safety is not a consideration. Good to know - that makes it even less reasonable to have this rule.

- ANY player can easily take advantage of the rule, disregarding accuracy. If in a Casual Water area, you can simply move back in the LOP to manipulate your line to the target. You are not required to go to the back edge of the water, just to where you deem "Ok". So, getting a preferred angle to the target is available. The player standing in a puddle gets to use the entire length of that puddle as a lie - to pick and choose the best line. They are not on unsafe ground (Per your not a safety issue comment), so why would they get to CHOOSE their lie?

- Oceans, lakes, ponds, streams and their ilk should just be "Water" - adding puddles to the equation makes it less consistent. As you mentioned, these areas are temporary, unlike the prior examples. (I know some streams and ponds dry up, speaking generally)

__________________________________

I do not believe this has much to do with the course designer - And am not overlooking anything that I am aware of - Oceans, lakes, ponds, streams and their ilk are part of the course designers consideration, yes. Puddles that appear due to rain, or ones that remain for periods of time are not related to the designer. (I am aware they can avoid areas with the foresight of problems, hope they do so)

As for the TD - yes, if the area is DANGEROUS or UNPLAYABLE then "wisely marking problem areas with appropriate hazard rules" is appropriate - These areas (Puddles) are neither.

IMO, Casual Water should not include puddles. All players just play from where your disc lands in these puddles and any manipulation of lie and line are gone. That seems much more fair and consistent.

I have played in events where what could be considered a new stream appears from a downpour. That is moving water and could be dangerous to a player. In that circumstance I can understand a TD deeming that area for Casual Relief.

Other lies offer chances to rip your skin apart, fall down a hill or break an ankle on uneven footing. I just can not grasp allowing the ample opportunity to manipulate your lie and line to the target over a lie that, at worst, gets your shoes wet.
No. Players shouldn't have to play a round with sopping wet shoes. That in itself is an actual safety concern. How about just letting them take their shoes off?
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:36 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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No. Players shouldn't have to play a round with sopping wet shoes. That in itself is an actual safety concern. How about just letting them take their shoes off?
But, but .... someone might think we're Hippies!
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Old Yesterday, 03:40 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
I disagree.


Do you really think not getting your shoes wet is a valid reason for this rule?

If it is a safety issue, how can you explain the difference in how the rules address a 10x10' circle with 1 inch of water verse a 10x10' circle of mud?

Are you ok with the fact that a player can take advantage of this rule to get a better line to the target?

Are you ok with a potential 1 stroke advantage being given to the player landing in a puddle verse the player 5 feet away, but not in a puddle?

Would you say that a puddle is a more dangerous lie verse the middle of a thorn bush, side of a steep slope or in a bed of uneven rocks/stones?

IMO, take the rule out completely and let puddles fall into the category of other "bad" lies. There are plenty of dangerous lies we willfully play from and puddles seem low on the "dangerous" level in comparison to those other lies. It is literally called "Casual Water".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chains Bailey View Post
- Really? Wet shoes - not a legitimate reason for a rule, IMO.

- So, safety is not a consideration. Good to know - that makes it even less reasonable to have this rule.

- ANY player can easily take advantage of the rule, disregarding accuracy. If in a Casual Water area, you can simply move back in the LOP to manipulate your line to the target. You are not required to go to the back edge of the water, just to where you deem "Ok". So, getting a preferred angle to the target is available. The player standing in a puddle gets to use the entire length of that puddle as a lie - to pick and choose the best line. They are not on unsafe ground (Per your not a safety issue comment), so why would they get to CHOOSE their lie?

- Oceans, lakes, ponds, streams and their ilk should just be "Water" - adding puddles to the equation makes it less consistent. As you mentioned, these areas are temporary, unlike the prior examples. (I know some streams and ponds dry up, speaking generally)

__________________________________

I do not believe this has much to do with the course designer - And am not overlooking anything that I am aware of - Oceans, lakes, ponds, streams and their ilk are part of the course designers consideration, yes. Puddles that appear due to rain, or ones that remain for periods of time are not related to the designer. (I am aware they can avoid areas with the foresight of problems, hope they do so)

As for the TD - yes, if the area is DANGEROUS or UNPLAYABLE then "wisely marking problem areas with appropriate hazard rules" is appropriate - These areas (Puddles) are neither.

IMO, Casual Water should not include puddles. All players just play from where your disc lands in these puddles and any manipulation of lie and line are gone. That seems much more fair and consistent.

I have played in events where what could be considered a new stream appears from a downpour. That is moving water and could be dangerous to a player. In that circumstance I can understand a TD deeming that area for Casual Relief.

Other lies offer chances to rip your skin apart, fall down a hill or break an ankle on uneven footing. I just can not grasp allowing the ample opportunity to manipulate your lie and line to the target over a lie that, at worst, gets your shoes wet.
Sorry Chains!

I'm with Chuck. The player doesn't have to get his shoes wet -- he can just accept the penalty and throw from a better place. Setting all TD issues aside, in the grand scheme of things I'd much rather take a stroke penalty than risk getting sick, infected, or even having wet shoes the rest of the round. I can make up a stroke. Sheesh, it's a stroke on a scorecard, not social injustice.

Just take the stroke and move on.
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  #59  
Old Yesterday, 04:06 PM
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IMO, Casual Water should not include puddles. All players just play from where your disc lands in these puddles and any manipulation of lie and line are gone. That seems much more fair and consistent.
What's a puddle? Seriously, do you expect the rules to define and players to measure width, area, depth to determine when a puddle is big enough to qualify as casual water for relief? I realize some inconsistency with snow melt we're experiencing in Minnesota where the rule book says snow is not casual water and the resulting water puddles and run-off are usually not considered for free casual relief under the assumption that players are wearing appropriate footgear to deal with water.

However, until March 20 (spring), we're under winter rules (non-PDGA) which means no 1-throw penalties for things like OB, lost disc and abandoned throw. I suppose a player could get relief back on the LOP from any inbounds lie without penalty but I haven't heard of anyone pushing winter rules to that extent.
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