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Old 12-17-2017, 03:39 PM
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tom12003 tom12003 is offline
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Default What's better?

I maintain (and was the lead builder) a bluish/white fun course that was used in the 2012 Worlds by 560+ AM men. Steve West analyzed the scoring separation (which turned out fairly positive). The longest par 3 is 311’—more like 340’ after factoring the slight uphill and trees—but averaged 2.95. Steve discouraged me in making the current holes longer (we designed lengthening options) but it would not change the scoring separation just add an extra throw or 2).

After 6 years of course existence and experience, I’ve come up with a few tweaks that would allow a decent grip and rip hole that could add to challenge. First, one hole could be combined to make an easy hole (a 234’ par 3) into a tough wooded 340’ par 3. The other tweak would be to add a new hole that could measure about 520’ or so and could be a par 4; longest for this course. The only problem is that after 30+ different test players (assuming all 30’ putts being made) most of the 950+ rated players are getting a simple 3, the rest are carding a 4). IT IS A TWEENER! Cannot add another 50’ to make this new hole a truer par 4 because of safety issues.

What is better? A 520-535’ par 4 or a 425’ par 3? Remember this is not a gold course but a bluish-white that caters to the vast majority of casual players.
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:36 PM
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Keller Keller is offline
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If it's an average course with average players, my vote goes for the 520'-535' par 4. At least the average player has a chance for a birdie here and there.
Most players out there will never birdie a 425' hole unless they throw it in.

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Old 12-17-2017, 06:15 PM
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tom12003 tom12003 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keller View Post
If it's an average course with average players, my vote goes for the 520'-535' par 4. At least the average player has a chance for a birdie here and there.
Most players out there will never birdie a 425' hole unless they throw it in.
I've thrown the 520+ hole 12 times; as a less than 800 Legend (over 70 yrs old)--1 birdie, 5 pars, and 7 bogies. It challenges me; a 940 player probably four 3s, four 4s, and four 5s. When I play with Big Jerm I'd expect him to shoot four 2s, four 3s, and four 4s. At 425' par 3, Jerm should be three 2s and ten 3s, but then he is not our normal player
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:16 PM
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tom12003 tom12003 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keller View Post
If it's an average course with average players, my vote goes for the 520'-535' par 4. At least the average player has a chance for a birdie here and there.
Most players out there will never birdie a 425' hole unless they throw it in.
The course already is full of birdie opportunities.
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:45 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom12003 View Post
I maintain (and was the lead builder) a bluish/white fun course that was used in the 2012 Worlds by 560+ AM men. Steve West analyzed the scoring separation (which turned out fairly positive). ...
Available here: http://www.stevewestdiscgolf.com/Fun...mbers_from.pdf
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:49 PM
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ThrowaEnvy ThrowaEnvy is offline
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One long hole shouldn't be an issue it will be an asset. I like that you kept stuff short and competitive... My old layout which kinda used some logging roads on the neighbours property gave a distinct advantage to a few people in our local group, there was 4 holes which were a tough two for most players except three guys with a cannon arm, even in doubles it created a massive advantage. 4 out of 18 is a 22% advantage, 1 out of 18 is 5.5% A big birdie will be memorable for the lesser distance players.

It's your course do what you want, on Sunday doubles when they come to my place every two months I like to change it up just to see what people do.. Move a teepad, set up an OB.. Last time I had a reverse OB and put the rotating basket in play, tragically me and the Cali guy were the only ones railed by the rotator.

Last edited by ThrowaEnvy; 12-17-2017 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:56 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Hard to say. But the long version gives the course some added variety. And par 4s, even tweener 3/4s, have players making that long second shot that they can't groove, like a tee shot, because it's never the same shot twice.

Another thought is, Which is more fun? Scoring separation is important but it's not everything, you know. As long as the scoring separation is at least decent, more fun and greater variety are worth weighing in the calculation.
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Old 12-17-2017, 07:10 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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In the range of 425 and 535 feet, anything can happen. Scores are not very closely tied to length. Here is how it looks for 1000-rated players (Not your target players but I happened to be working on those right now. Similar things happen for Advanced.)



With a broad range of players like you have, there is no way to tune it in to be optimal for everyone.

So, I'd say pick the one that's more fun, prettier, or just the one you'd rather play. You already know what you WANT to do, right?
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:07 PM
riltim riltim is offline
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IMHO the main goal of a course designed for the 900-950 rated player should be about skill building, where score separation comes naturally. Force players out of their comfort zone and make them throw a bomber 425' par 3, and then follow it up with a tight and technical anhyzer on a 240' par 3. Or a tight par 4 where if they miss a placement shot off the tee they need to scramble.

My idea of a perfect course is where a 920 rated player can score -5 or +3 depending on how well their game is dialed in for the day.
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:37 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Scoring separation is over-rated. Most fun wins.
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