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Old 04-15-2019, 04:27 PM
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SuperWookie SuperWookie is offline
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Hey everyone! I'm new here, haha

So I decided to take the plunge and start a swing/thow analysis page for myself. And even though I'm new to disc golf, I'm not new to sports or advanced levels of sports. Especially golf, tennis and hockey. I've played frisbee with a buddy of mine for MANY years in his backyard and we can chuck it, and have such a nice relaxing time in the warmer weather just hanging out, chuckin the disc! A little background about me to help you understand where I'm coming from. I'm super tall... 6'8" , athletic, have played sports my entire life, and most sports I play I'm either good or really good at them, and it doesn't take me long to pick them up.

But this Disc Golf thing is driving me crazy so far, haha. I started "playing" a few weeks ago and it's just super aggravating so far, haha. I've played two 9 hole rds, and been to the practice field 4 times so far (about 1.5 hrs each time). To go from a beginner to being able to hit the ball properly and really well in tennis and golf, it barely took me a few years, and that was with hardly any practice or determination and in my teens when I didn't give a crap about practicing or learning anything. And now that I'm an adult and really put the time and effort into learning, reading, and practicing things I want to become good at, I can't believe it's taking me this long to pick this throwing motion up! It looks SO STUPID easy when you watch someone like Philo just nonchalantly throw a disc 350-400' with almost no effort at all! But it isn't! And it's really annoying the hell out of me, haha. I mean, I didn't expect to be a pro or an expert in a few weeks or anything, but I at least thought I'd be able to throw it pretty far and fairly straight almost immediately based on my ability to pick up and play tennis, golf, softball, frisbee and may other sports so quickly. And that is NOT happening.

So I decided I need to start my own swing/throw analysis thread so I can start getting the help I need to become better. As it is driving me crazy that I can't throw it well.

And before anyone even asks, NO I don't have a video yet of my throw, but as soon as I do, I'll post it here so people can rip it to shreds and tell me how amazing they are and how bad I am, haha.

I was told last week, that I should be in here instead of the disc threads, that it's not the discs fault, it's me. Everyone also suggested for now, to mostly stay away from drivers or any disc above a speed 7 and just throw a bunch of putters and midrange discs. My original bag I purchased based on a friends suggestions and my own initial research were the following discs (thinking I'd be throwing them all straight and far): Champ Krait, Champ Thunderbird, Axiom Prism Proton Insanity SE Prototype, Champ TL, Champ Leopard3, Buzzz, and an RPM Cosmic Tui putter. All great discs I'm sure, but only a few of them fly well right now for me.

So on the suggestion of almost everyone (and since I need more discs to practice with), I just picked up a bunch of slightly stable, to neutral, to slightly understable midranges so I can practice. Plus I got them all in softer plastic as I was told they have better glide and are slightly more understable right away. As opposed to Champ plastic taking a while to "break in" and straighten out and get more glide. So I got the following discs to practice and play with: Lat64 Gold Line Maul, Lat64 Gold Line Fuse, Innova Star Mako3 and an MVP Neutron Tangent. All are apparently super easy to throw, super straight to slightly understable, and have a lot of glide and are low speed. So perfect for a beginner. I'm dropping my Krait, Insanity and Thunderbird for now until I can throw at that speed.

So far, at the local football field, I'm throwing my putter and Buzzz about 100-150' on avg and fairly straight when I concentrate. If I try to throw farther, I maybe get another 10-20', but the form drops off and the accuracy drops considerably. A few times I've thrown my putter around 200' and fairly straight-ish, but the Buzzz for some reason usually only goes about 150' and straigh-ish. If I try to throw it even a tad harder, it goes left, or right, or up and just putters out. The putter is much easier to get some really good throws with and is more forgiving it feels like.

When I throw the Leopard3, TL, Thunderbird or Insanity, they all go about 150-200' with only a few ever going over 200'. And most of them are definitely not very straight at all. Loads of nose up throws with tons of fade. Or super high, super left fades that go maybe 100'. I think the Insanity is the only one I've had more than 2 decent throws with ever. Sometimes I jerk yank them right, haha. It's a mess!

Then for some reason with my Krait driver, I actually get a bit better. Usually able to throw it about 200' with about 1/4 of my throws getting out around 250'. Also for some reason, I have had more throws that were nice and low that sailed with the Krait, and no other disc.

So I'm just going to start going through things I know I do poorly so that people can point me in the right direction as well as videos for drills and how to's.

So things that are not coming through in my throw, that I know to do and should be doing are:

- Nose down throws. Still not even sure what this means? I'm assuming it means throw the disc on a lower initial launch angle? Or maybe it just means to hold the disc in a way that it's slightly pointed nose down upon release? Not even sure how I can tell if I threw it nose down? I obviously know when I throw the disc lowish, as it stays lower, haha. About 10-15' off the deck. But still not sure about this "nose down" info everyone is always talking about. I've read some of the articles and still don't get it. I need help with this and grip possibly. Although I have read this article a few times: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/r...ttoripit.shtml and nothing seems to help or make the results any better.

- High launch angles. No matter how hard I try, I seem to keep ending up with more of a baseball or golf uppercut follow through. Almost all my discs start out high and just keep climbing and then quickly lose steam and fall left or way left. Every once and awhile I'm able to throw a little flatter, but it feels weird and like I'm loosing power.

- Most throws just feel weak once they leave my hand. I had INCREDIBLE lag and snap in my golf and tennis swing. I know what it feels like. And I guess I just don't understand all the in depth mechanics of how and when I should be feeling that lag and then snap in the disc golf throw. I can throw nice and smooth, medium, or full power with a big run up and it feels weak every time. The disc goes 150-200 at the farthest most of the time and it just feels pathetic for how much power I'm putting into the swing at any power level. It is funny though how my slower no X step throws are barely shorter than my run up throws where I really lay into it, and way more accurate, haha.

- I also don't understand the mechanics or what I'm supposed to be doing or feeling with my wrist during the throw? Am I consciously supposed to be feeling a slight lag or "weak grip" of my wrist during the reach back, and then flick through right at the moment of release? Or not? I feel like I don't understand how the disc gets so much spin on it in order to stay straight and go far. I see pros throws and sometimes can see the extreme spin on the disc as the logo is just whizzing around. Whereas when I throw it, I can actually see the logo going around as it slowly makes it's way down the field and only goes 150-200'. If you know golf well, you know a player like Sergio Garcia has a TON of lag and then extreme wrist action right before he makes contact with the ball. So much in fact that he used to be able to hit the ball every bit as far as Tiger and others, even though he lacks the strength of Tiger or other strong bodied ball strikers. But, it was inconsistent and he had to work with his coach to get out of that hitch he had to get much more consistent. And even though he still has never become one of the greatest golfers in the world like a lot of people thought he would, his swing has become much more repeatable and consistent. And I notice that hitch or flick from a lot of the skinny young pros out there. Guys like McMahon, Barela, DeVries all have a hitch in their throw at the last second and really snap their wrist or arm through the release point it looks like. And yet then you have someone like Philo who literally looks like he's throwing it 100' maybe with barely any run up or speed in his swing at all, and he can throw it just as far! Or this guy (I think this is HUB? from this forum) in this video! He looks like he's barely throwing it at all, AND he's doing some drill where he's just windmilling the disc around and then just nonchalantly tosses 4-5 discs in a row 360-375' with a midrange!!!!! It's VERY confusing and it doesn't look like he's doing anything extraordinary or a whole lot different. I know he is, but it just doesn't look like it! It's CRAZY! HOW does he/everyone do this?

- I have watched a LOT of pro throws now, since getting into this sport. A LOT of pros throw differently, but the one thing they all do similar is get a good reach back (not all of them reach back super far though), a great weight transfer, and a boat load of speed right at the last second coming through. But one thing they do differently that is confusing to me, after reading all of this advice on how to throw better, is a high elbow/arm. I hear it over and over again, and yet I see tons of pros throw mid or low elbow/arm. Some throw mid, some low, some high. And it's something that bothers me. I've always felt much more power coming in mid or low on a golf/tennis/softball ball, not high. So when I try to keep my elbow/arm up high, it feels SUPER weird and like I'm getting no power transfer at all. Where as when I come through around belly height aprox, that is where I feel like I can really rip into it. But as of right now, I'm throwing everything with hyzer angle, high, and ends up fading out left around 150-230' almost every single throw.

So... do I HAVE to learn to throw with a high elbow? Or can you still become a consistent player with a lower arm angle? This is what I'm talking about

High Elbow/Arm throw:


Lower Elbow/Arm throw:


Well, that's what I have for now. I'll be posting in here after every practice session with progress and more questions and hopefully advice from people much more experienced than myself. Thanks everyone
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:54 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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To answer a few of the questions that I think are most important:

Nose angle:
-the front of the disc, or leading part relative to trajectory, is considered the nose
-the nose must be lower than the back end of the disc relative to the trajectory path so that it pushes forward, rather than rising/stalling upward
-this is done by proper grip alignment first, then having a good swing plane so that you don't swoop the disc upward as in a poorly executed uppercut plane
-you can tell if the throw was nose down, because you should not be able to see the flight plate of the disc at all after release on a flat-ish throw. If you can see the top of the disc, even a sliver of it, you did not throw nose down enough.

"Reachback":
-I hate this term
-BACKSWING is better
-it doesn't matter how far the disc or arm is back...it matters you have constant control/leverage of the arm
-you don't try to get your golf club way past your head as far as possible...you turn back at the hips then torso, and the arms/club naturally moves back...same thing with your throwing arm
-do not use your shoulder socket to reach at all...turn with hips/torso, arm is with them

You are throwing the "club" or tennis racquet, not striking with the disc:
-so I would recommend the hammer drills, it will give you weight like you are used to feeling and then you can go somewhere SAFE and release the hammer to get used to how it leverages outward
-you don't need crazy wrist bend/lag, and it will happen naturally...don't force it
-do not try to spin the hammer/disc, it WILL rotate enough if you have good leverage
-don't focus on arm speed, focus on balance of your body, control/leverage of the arm, and staying clean with your planes
-the arcs adding at the same time will make the disc rocket out, not pure arm speed at the shoulder


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Old 04-15-2019, 05:00 PM
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Lumberjack504 Lumberjack504 is offline
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First of all, welcome! I think you're on the right track already as far as dropping the higher speed overstable plastic. This will serve you well in the long run.

Second of all, get some video, like yesterday! We can't really point you in the proper direction until we see what you're actually trying to do with the disc.

Until we see some video, go watch through sidewinder's videos here, and start with power of posture: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=119328

Don't try to muscle the disc, focus on lower body. Your nose up issues could be poor grip alignment, or not getting your weight forward, but more likely a mixture of the two.

Oh yeah, FORGET the term "reachback". It's a dirty, evil word that should never be spoken in disc golf. You do NOT reach back, you turn your hips back into a backswing, and the arm and disc unit follow. Everything is ground up.

Enjoy the journey. If you really work at this, with your wingspan, you have the potential to really crush. You'll likely improve in quantum leaps in the beginning, and then things will stall. This is normal. Try different things, have fun with it, and don't try to muscle it!

Oh yeah, practice putting.

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Old 04-15-2019, 05:27 PM
Mocheez Mocheez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
So... do I HAVE to learn to throw with a high elbow? Or can you still become a consistent player with a lower arm angle? This is what I'm talking about
Paul and Simon are throwing with about the same arm angle in relation to their torso. The difference you are seeing is Paul is releasing close to flat while Simon is throwing a hyzer. Simon is bent at the waist while Paul is nearly upright.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:21 PM
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Consult20 Consult20 is offline
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Interesting you mentioned "DeVries", not many here know that name yet.
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:12 PM
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SuperWookie SuperWookie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowplastic View Post
To answer a few of the questions that I think are most important:

Nose angle:
-the front of the disc, or leading part relative to trajectory, is considered the nose
-the nose must be lower than the back end of the disc relative to the trajectory path so that it pushes forward, rather than rising/stalling upward
-this is done by proper grip alignment first, then having a good swing plane so that you don't swoop the disc upward as in a poorly executed uppercut plane
-you can tell if the throw was nose down, because you should not be able to see the flight plate of the disc at all after release on a flat-ish throw. If you can see the top of the disc, even a sliver of it, you did not throw nose down enough.

"Reachback":
-I hate this term
-BACKSWING is better
-it doesn't matter how far the disc or arm is back...it matters you have constant control/leverage of the arm
-you don't try to get your golf club way past your head as far as possible...you turn back at the hips then torso, and the arms/club naturally moves back...same thing with your throwing arm
-do not use your shoulder socket to reach at all...turn with hips/torso, arm is with them

You are throwing the "club" or tennis racquet, not striking with the disc:
-so I would recommend the hammer drills, it will give you weight like you are used to feeling and then you can go somewhere SAFE and release the hammer to get used to how it leverages outward
-you don't need crazy wrist bend/lag, and it will happen naturally...don't force it
-do not try to spin the hammer/disc, it WILL rotate enough if you have good leverage
-don't focus on arm speed, focus on balance of your body, control/leverage of the arm, and staying clean with your planes
-the arcs adding at the same time will make the disc rocket out, not pure arm speed at the shoulder


Ok, I understand what you are saying. I will try to work on that and at least I know what "nose down" means now. It's not the launch angle, it's the disc angle itself. I should see barely any flight plate or none at all, no matter how low or high my launch angle is?

So what if I am gripping the disc properly AND getting my weight forward into my bracing leg, and it still goes nose up? Because that is what is happening. I'm even going with a thumb forward/thumb out grip, so that I'm on the edge of the disc (as I read that it helps a bit with keeping the nose down more so), and still discs are going nose up. What else could it be? Too low of a release angle? Do I HAVE to throw with my arm up high around my pecs or higher? Not sure. Maybe I need to keep my wrist flexed down, like the handshake pose the entire time I throw?

Ok, so backswing, reachback, potaYto, potAto, haha. Man, you guys REALLY hate that word Reachback. Almost like the Knights who say Ni! The disc is going back with your arm. Same as golf. Some players take the club back straight, way back down the line before finally turning, others take it inside almost right away. Almost all pros are different or slightly different on their backswings. Some players even have CRAZY ass backswings like Jim Furyk. But it's irrelevant. All good players have the EXACT same thing in common. They get the the clubhead to the ball from a slightly inside path, with a good delay and lag in the head and then fire through the hitting zone. The rest is irrelevant. The important part is the path the club takes right after the downswing starts until they hit the ball. The rest just takes care of itself.

And I've noticed some disc golfers have a smaller backswing/reachback, and others a TON. Like Will Schusterick. Look at his extreme reachback here:

So can you explain why certain Pros or players REALLY reach back super far, and others don't? So for a golf reference. Certain players have a HUGE backswing and go past parralel and they are not very consistent (ala John Daly, or a lot of young kids). And then some golfers have almost a 3/4 backswing (ala Tony Finau), and can still hit it a TON and are very consistent. Like you said, neither is better or worse "per say." But if you can get the same distance more or less with a shorter backswing, why would you ever take a huge backswing or reachback? It just seems like it would set you up for more possible problems in the throw? A long backswing/reachback up to a point gets you a huge arc, and more room to create clubhead speed/disc speed. But past a certain point, you are just straining your body for no reason and getting yourself so out of position to make a really athletic move to the ball. So why do people like Will (and other players) do that? And certain pros do reach WAY back. Just look at that photo of Will!

I will definitely try these hammer throw drills that I've seen Seabass doing on his videos all the time. Not sure if it will help me throw farther or better though. I already know what lag and weight in a club or racquet feels like. I feel like there's NO way to get that feeling with these discs because they weigh NOTHING. I used to have a lot of my clubs with a crazy heavy swing weight on them so I could feel the clubhead better and really feel the weight build up in the swing and then just hammer the ball right before impact. Think Freddy Couples swing. Super lazy and just building up the energy, and then BAM at the last second. But overall it looks pretty relaxed. But I can't feel that with a disc as it weighs 175g and is tiny. I will try these drills, but right now, I'm not seeing how it will help me figure out that magic ability to throw better and farther.

Good to know I don't need to do anything with my wrist per say. But it does look like certain pros are REALLY flipping their wrist through the release point, while others are almost stiff arming/wristing the throw. like I mentioned in my first post, guys like McMahon, Barela, DeVries, etc really flip their wrist or have a hitch in their motion right at the last second like Cecil Fielder, Gary Shefield, Sergio Garcia, etc. And then a guy like James Conrad or Tony Cramer look like they are literally just keeping their arms pretty stiff throughout the throw and going around their body as opposed to pulling through closer to their body like some people do.

Not sure what you mean by staying clean with your planes. Or the arcs adding at the same time. Can you explain that in more detail or show references explaining? Thanks

Thanks for all the tips, I'll keep watching all the videos and reading all the stuff
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Consult20 View Post
Interesting you mentioned "DeVries", not many here know that name yet.
I only know him because I watched that video from Innova showing their speed 9 drivers. And he was on there. His throw really caught my eye is different then a lot of players. Not as smooth as the others. He has a slow build up, then a violent turn back/backswing and violent arm speed through the release zone. Definitely has a wrist hitch in his motion at the last second, ala Sergio Garcia, Cecil Fielder, etc. Same with McMahon Barela. Seems like a lot of young kids always are the ones with a hitch in their swing/throw in sports. It's a way for kids with less body power to get more power/distance. But usually can be hard to replicate over and over and be super consistent.
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumberjack504 View Post
First of all, welcome! I think you're on the right track already as far as dropping the higher speed overstable plastic. This will serve you well in the long run.

Second of all, get some video, like yesterday! We can't really point you in the proper direction until we see what you're actually trying to do with the disc.

Until we see some video, go watch through sidewinder's videos here, and start with power of posture: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=119328

Don't try to muscle the disc, focus on lower body. Your nose up issues could be poor grip alignment, or not getting your weight forward, but more likely a mixture of the two.

Oh yeah, FORGET the term "reachback". It's a dirty, evil word that should never be spoken in disc golf. You do NOT reach back, you turn your hips back into a backswing, and the arm and disc unit follow. Everything is ground up.

Enjoy the journey. If you really work at this, with your wingspan, you have the potential to really crush. You'll likely improve in quantum leaps in the beginning, and then things will stall. This is normal. Try different things, have fun with it, and don't try to muscle it!

Oh yeah, practice putting.
I did find that link today that has all the videos from SW22, HUB, etc. That is a gold mine of information. So I will definitely be making me way through most/all of those over the next few weeks/months.

Thanks
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:30 PM
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One thing that I'm looking for in ALL of this tons of information that is out there is THE KEY. I really don't want to seem arrogant or like a know it all. I obviously don't know it all as I'm struggling so far, and probably will continue to for sometime. And I am VERY grateful for all of this help that is out there and you guys pointing me to it. And trust me, I will go through most or all of it. But so far, a lot of the stuff I have watched or read, is stuff I already know or am doing. A LOT of this stuff is so similar to mechanics and technique required to hit a baseball, tennis ball or golf ball. And like I mentioned, I am very good at those and understand them very well. So a lot of the videos I'm watching so far are things I've already learned a long time ago from golf, tennis, or some other sport or are at the very least, super similar. So I'm not sure how much they will help me. I'm sure some will and some won't. And I'm definitely not saying I'm not going to go through them all and try them out, see how they work. I will. But what I'm really looking for is THE KEY. That one magic thing about the Disc golf throw that allows you to throw far.

So in golf, the only thing that ever really mattered and allowed me to finally become a great ball striker is the late release. The ability to learn and feel and then perform a late release. All new golfers have NO idea what it is, how to do it, and even when their taught how to do it, they can't and it feels weird. And it was the same for me. But one year into college, when I was working at Golf Galaxy, the pro was recording me swing, and said I was doing a lot right, but the one major thing he said I needed to work on and "understand" was the late release. Not sure why it happened at that point, but I decided to listen to him and really try hard to learn this "late release" thing. Long story short, I watched a bunch of videos of Ernie, Freddy, Sergio, Singh the pro had on the computer and saw with my own eyes what "IT" was. It blew my mind. I started working on it and it felt SUPER weird. It was a struggle for months. Then one day, it just started happening and the ball just started SLING SHOTTING off of my club with such little effort. It was like magic! The ability to hold that lag and the angle so late and then letting the build up of my swing power it through the ball at the last second and release was so amazing. And everything else was secondary and almost irrelevant to that. At that point, all the grip alignments, foot work, hip turn, straight back swing, turn in back swing, etc etc was secondary and didn't matter as much. Not that they didn't help, but at that point, I could do almost anything and still hit the ball a mile, with loads of spin, and shape it however I wanted! I realized at that point, that ALL those articles I'd wasted my time reading for years and years in Golf Digest and everywhere were more or less useless. Not the CORE issue of how to hit a golf ball far. You can NEVER hit the ball far, straight, with lots of spin, and with little effort unless you learn the late release. All the other stuff is just minor details that allow you to do that much better. Obviously you can't hit a golf ball well if you have bad balance, if your grip is super messed up, etc. But that is all beginner stuff. Stuff that someone who is intelligent knows already and does pretty well or great.

And that is what I'm looking for. What is that 1 Significant KEY to throwing a disc super far with little effort? And what are the drills to work on that key? And obviously I will be working on the stuff that is essential to laying a good foundation to allowing me to throw far and getting that down pat. And I can work on all the little details on the way and later on. But at this point, all I'm really concerned about what is THE KEY, so I can work on that, get it down, and start having fun throwing. What is the "late release" of disc golf and how do I work on getting it?

Thanks
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post

So what if I am gripping the disc properly AND getting my weight forward into my bracing leg, and it still goes nose up?
Could be swooping your swing plane. Again, can't help until we see some footage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
And I've noticed some disc golfers have a smaller backswing/reachback, and others a TON. Like Will Schusterick. Look at his extreme reachback here:
Will is not reaching back, he's in full door-frame position, turned back through his hips. His arm is extended so that he can bring the disc into his center (power pocket) and then redirect it/accelerate it/toss it away from his center.

The reason we don't like the term "reachback" is because it's the source of bad, hard to break habits that most of us here had to or still have to fight through. Habits such as tipping the upper body back beyond the rear foot, or using the shoulder socket to alligator-arm the disc behind us and end up hugging ourselves - instead of turning through the hips and "leaving the disc behind" while gliding forward of it. I highly suggest you check out Sidewinder's door frame drills.

See here how will's frame is upright and his mass is between his feet. He's not reaching, he left the disc behind and unfolded his body forward of it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
But I can't feel that with a disc as it weighs 175g and is tiny.
Which is exactly why you should toss a hammer. Our brains and bodies have millions of years of evolution and instinct when it comes to using our mass to move and leverage weight. When you try to backhand pimp slap someone, do you think about swing planes or what your hips are doing, or do you just let it happen?

I really don't know about the wrist stuff... I'm also a student of form and am always trying to improve, just trying to share some things I've picked up along that way that would've saved me some struggles in the earlier stages.







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