#31  
Old 06-10-2019, 10:07 PM
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DiscGolfCraig DiscGolfCraig is offline
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Originally Posted by blazerico View Post
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I figured it was the review for Harmon where HC complained the mowing wasn’t completed before he played.
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  #32  
Old 06-10-2019, 11:08 PM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
But hopefully the locals who review their own courses can maybe shed some light on how the locals get around some of these things right?
Certainly, if they recognize the issues. Look, good reviews are good reviews no matter who writes them and no matter the rating. I think that people who undertake the task of writing a meaningful review are always going to end up providing helpful information. Even when it is repetitive, the confirmation of other reviews provided is reassuring to someone who is deciding whether to detour a few hours and play that course. But I have also read plenty of seemingly well written, homer reviews that described a course that doesn't really exist.

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Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
Bad reviews are bad, well written reviews are good, regardless of first time traveler or local or hell even the course designer.
I agree with this. But if a course has only a few meaningless reviews and you run across one that seems to be well written and well considered but that ignores everything the local reviewer doesn't deem important, it can lead to a big disappointment. The problem is that with this type of sparsely reviewed course, you can't always tell the difference between a good and bad review.

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Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
It seems to me a good mix of local and traveler reviews are good for everyone, especially if the local reviews can simply take a step back and review their course from the point of view of a traveler. Poorly written reviews come in all shapes and sizes so the real hope is just to eliminate unhelpful reviews.
As long as there are a sufficient number of reviews, I would agree. But an accurate review can be poorly written and a homer, misleading review can be well written. One such example qickly comes to mind, but I played it before that review was posted and can't blame my misfortune on the silly homer who thinks that 9 baskets in a briar patch thirty miles from civilization is awe inspiring.

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  #33  
Old 06-11-2019, 09:02 AM
Motorpro Motorpro is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscGolfCraig View Post
The unspoken truth is that a lot of lowball ratings are from people who weren’t good enough to play an advanced skill-level course. The course isn’t unfair. Your 250-foot drives just won’t play well on a 12,000 foot course.
That is true but so is the opposite. Just because a course has 250 to 300 foot holes doesn't make it bad. It just doesn't play well for 950 rated players.

Last edited by Motorpro; 06-11-2019 at 09:06 AM.
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  #34  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:00 AM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscGolfCraig View Post
The unspoken truth is that a lot of lowball ratings are from people who weren’t good enough to play an advanced skill-level course. The course isn’t unfair. Your 250-foot drives just won’t play well on a 12,000 foot course.
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Originally Posted by Motorpro View Post
That is true but so is the opposite. Just because a course has 250 to 300 foot holes doesn't make it bad. It just doesn't play well for 950 rated players.
That's one of the things that makes Harmony Bends so great - appropriately challenges a wide range of skill levels better than any course I've seen. The only skill level it really isn't suited for is the true novice.

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  #35  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscGolfCraig View Post
The unspoken truth is that a lot of lowball ratings are from people who weren’t good enough to play an advanced skill-level course. The course isn’t unfair. Your 250-foot drives just won’t play well on a 12,000 foot course.
There is certainly truth to this. But as Bogey said, excellent design can cater to multiple skill levels, even on a long hole or long course. Thinking of Milo/Riverbend hole 2 (1,175') and Hawk Hollow hole 8 (975').
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
That's one of the things that makes Harmony Bends so great - appropriately challenges a wide range of skill levels better than any course I've seen. The only skill level it really isn't suited for is the true novice.
Same for Hobbs, the most accessible course for all skill levels that I have played so far. HB is still a few years down the road on our bagging schedule (proly get Flip and Idlewild before HB).
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  #37  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DiscGolfCraig View Post
I figured it was the review for Harmon where HC complained the mowing wasn’t completed before he played.
One the the St. Louis County courses got dinged a couple of weeks ago; it had been raining like Hell for a month and the County also had maintenance diverted because of flooding. It was pretty much a given that the County courses were going to be less than stellar. I ran into overgrown parks for weeks with everyone struggling to figure out mowing triage.

Of course I know that. The review said something about the town the course is in "stepping up its game" when that town has nothing to do with maintenance of a County course. So it was an out of town golfer, not really aware of how bad the weather has been, not aware of who has jurisdiction over that park and not aware of the major flooding the area was preparing for. They just know that they went to play a course and the grass was really high.

Bottom line was the grass WAS really high. In the snapshot of that day, the reviewer was justified, even though when I read it I thought "This is B.S." It's just the limitations of a snapshot review. It is what it is.

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  #38  
Old 06-11-2019, 01:00 PM
c_a_miller c_a_miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
It's not just the "homer bias" of reviews of locals that undercuts their usefulness. And I agree that homers have the benefit of the knowledge that you've pointed out.

But locals also have the familiarity with a course that lets them ignore, or completely fail to notice, things that are important to travelers. Locals may never notice a lack of tee signs or the information that they lack. Someone whose first round at a course was in a mini or league and who never needed help with navigation may not realize the navigational nightmare that a course presents to a first time user. If your introduction to disc golf came on a course with no tee boxes, that may not be something worth mentioning in a review of that course. No bathroom? Locals always come prepared. Does a local that plays a course every evening because he learned long ago that dust and dew don't mix well forget to mention another con in his review.

Locals sometimes adhere to local customary rules surrounding OB that "fix" a design issue but that a traveler may have no way of knowing. These types of issues are endless.

By contrast, a traveler is much more likely to review the things that are going to be important to another traveler.

So, while I don't disagree with you that locals can have a special insight into a course's character over time (and everything else you've mentioned), their special familiarity with a course can itself be problematic as far as reviews are concerned.
Tell that to the local at a course I reviewed that sent me a message on here telling me my review was completely off basis and that the navigation issue I commented on aren't real.
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  #39  
Old 06-11-2019, 01:30 PM
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If a course is only reviewed by locals, you will only get Homeboy Bias.
you need people who have seen the best and worst that can be offered.

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  #40  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:16 PM
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I'm generally in favor of more reviews, by anyone. More information, more insight. Taking the good with the occasional bad. With enough reviews it averages out, and with few reviews, I'd rather have something than nothing.

The locals and the travelers both have lots to offer: the locals, experience with the course; the travelers, fresh eyes. Either may or may not bring experience of other courses or even regions.

The wish I gather from the original post, and some subsequent ones (Doofensmirtz in particular) is for more reviewers to step back and consider some perspective. For travelers, not to assume that the conditions you encounter are the norm at that course; for locals, to try to see the course as if for the first time.

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