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Old 06-13-2010, 05:37 AM
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optidiscic optidiscic is offline
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Default An Open Letter to Three Putt/Garubladder

Have been trying to understand disc technology as once I understand how something works I am better able to understand how to use it. I am one of those guys who needs to know how something works in order to use it properly.
What I really want to know is what disc features contribute to different flight characteristics.
SPEED
GLIDE
TURN
FADE
Stability


I know about wind, disc weight and arm speed and am getting sick of technique advice when I simply am CURIOUS about why certain discs do what they do

I realize theres a relationship between stability and glide (not absolute though see Viper, ROC and Wolf) What's the secret ingedient here with the oddballs?

Basically what disc features contribute to different disc flights.

I know this will be boring to most (I apologize)and others will not be able to control themselves and will contribute technique and disc choice advice...(I forgive you) and others will attempt to Hi-Jack this thread into the landfill (I neither apologize nor forgive you) but understanding why discs do what they do has helped my game tremendously and I often marvel at old pros who can pick up a worn disc with no markings or clue what disc it is other than the shape and features and be able to tell me how it will fly.

Thanks in advance
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Last edited by optidiscic; 06-13-2010 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 06-13-2010, 08:22 AM
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wolito wolito is offline
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I certianly don't know enough about discs in order to answer your questions, but rather would liketo say I share your fascination about how disc truly work. Afterall, it is the main component of our game. You certianly addressed it to the right people to answer it. I look forward to the answers.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorB View Post
Understable is a disc golf term that means glide (or force of lift generated) in flight mechanics. Just because a wolf wants to turn into the ground doesn't mean it isn't trying to glide. It's just lifting itself so severely it causes it to fall off a flat axis and turn over.
quoted for the truth.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:27 AM
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harr0140 harr0140 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optidiscic View Post
Have been trying to understand disc technology as once I understand how something works I am better able to understand how to use it. I am one of those guys who needs to know how something works in order to use it properly.
What I really want to know is what disc features contribute to different flight characteristics.
SPEED
GLIDE
TURN
FADE
Stability


I know about wind, disc weight and arm speed and am getting sick of technique advice when I simply am CURIOUS about why certain discs do what they do

I realize theres a relationship between stability and glide (not absolute though see Viper, ROC and Wolf) What's the secret ingedient here with the oddballs?

Basically what disc features contribute to different disc flights.

I know this will be boring to most (I apologize)and others will not be able to control themselves and will contribute technique and disc choice advice...(I forgive you) and others will attempt to Hi-Jack this thread into the landfill (I neither apologize nor forgive you) but understanding why discs do what they do has helped my game tremendously and I often marvel at old pros who can pick up a worn disc with no markings or clue what disc it is other than the shape and features and be able to tell me how it will fly.

Thanks in advance
I have wondered the same things and also how the differetn plastic relate to stability and other flight patterns.

Good question!
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:54 AM
garublador garublador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optidiscic View Post
I know this will be boring to most (I apologize)and others will not be able to control themselves and will contribute technique and disc choice advice...(I forgive you)
First, you'll never get the answers you're looking for by trying to sepearate disc flight charictaristics and technique. You need to throw the discs to get them to fly. Without technique the discs just sit there.

Second, I'm not sure I really understand the question. Are you asking how physical features of the discs affect flight or are you asking for the definitions of those terms listed above or some combination where you're looking for what physical features cause changes in the terms?

I can take a stab at it, though.

Speed is the easiest to define but not understood by many very well. It's a disc's ability to resist slowing down. That means it penetrates better into headwinds, retains stability into headwinds/at higher initial speeds and requires a faster initial speed to match it's given stability ratings (so it depends on technique). It is not a measurement of how fast it comes out of your hand. Generally, speed is inversely perportional to how fast a disc comes out of your hand. Wider rimmed discs are almost always higher speed than narrower rimmed discs.

Glide has a couple definitions. It can be a measurement of how well the discs "resists" fade (how late in the flight the disc fades) or it can be a measurement of how well a disc maintains altitude. A Sabre has lots of glide by the first definition (it fades super late) but little glide based on the second definition (it requires lots of height to go far). IMO, it's mostly a marketing number that doesn't really mean a whole lot. Notice that Joe's Flight Chart doesn't have a "glide" rating. My interpretation of Innvoa's "glide" rating is that it's a range rating for a given speed. More "glide" per speed means more distance if thrown right. Even Innova isn't separating technique from these ratings.

Turn is how well a disc resists high speed turn. There is a feature of turn that's rarely quantified where some discs turn gradually more and more as you throw them faster and faster (Eagle, Gazelle, OLF) and some go from straight to flipping hard rather quickly (Sidewinder, Archangel). The Teebird is weird because it's in the second category, but the speed required to get it to flip is super high, but the speed to get it to turn is relatively low.

The most common definition of fade is how far off line the disc fades at the end of its flight. There's a grey area between fade and glide. Some consider fade when a disc fades, too, so that kind of overlaps with one definition of glide.

Stability is kind of an ambiguous term. When I use it by itself, (e.g. a stable putter or a stable midrange) I mean a disc with stabilizing features (notches, beads) that have similar high speed stabilites for a high range of initial speeds.

So, in your other thread, where you talk about how the Wolf is understable but with little "glide" you're basically only looking at an understable disc that doesn't go very far. Going by another definition of glide (late fade for exapmle) it has a ton of glide. It's just difficult to throw it to get that glide out of it. Really, disc flight is way more complicated than 4-5 numbers. These ratings are only there to give you a general idea of how they'll fly compared to other discs. How they're thrown will have a very large effect on how the discs fly, so eigher only looking at disc ratings or only looking at technique will not get you the full picture of how a disc performs. Descriptions of how a disc performs coupled with technique will give you, by far, the most accurate information about the disc.

If you're looking for the physics of how certain disc features affect these ratings, I think you addressed your letter to at least one wrong person. I know very little about aerodynamics.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:56 AM
Frank Delicious Frank Delicious is offline
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Speed: how much spin and snap must be put on the disc to get it up to cruising speed. Weight of the rim and how ballistic the rim shape is usually contributes to the speed of the disc.

Glide: from what I understand (I wish JHern was over here, he knows a lot about disc physics) it has to do with how much and how air is trapped under the disc. This is why domey discs have more glide than flat discs. I am sure there is more to it than that but that is all I got

Turn: dunno probably has something to do with the aerodynamics of the profile of the disc.

Fade: lots of factors can contribute to fade: distribution of weight on the disc, notches on the rim, beads on the bottom, speed of the disc thrown, snap imparted onto the disc. Discs that have more weight on the rim, beads on the bottom and rim notches will generally fade harder than discs that don't have those things.

Stability: See speed and fade
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:57 AM
Frank Delicious Frank Delicious is offline
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I don't really know if I answered the questions correctly but there ya go. They are hard to separate out. they are all intertwined

edit: I see that Garu beat me to it and wrote more.
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Old 06-13-2010, 12:54 PM
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billnchristy billnchristy is offline
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Welcome back Frank.
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Old 06-13-2010, 01:04 PM
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Well, I just want to add my two cents: the guy is asking about physical features- NOT about form, NOT about definitions. He's asking the science about what specifically in a discs composition makes it do what it does.
A possible contribution to this discussion would be, from my understanding, something like "A bead on a wasp makes it more stable than the buzzz because (scientificy reason provied here)"- NOT "A bead on a wasp is what makes it more stable than a buzzz." He's asking the why. Don't get caught up in the whole "but it's about technique"- that's already an unspoken. He's talking pure physics right now- what separates one mold from another in terms of physics, not just observable characteristics (i.e. this one's got a wider rim).
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Old 06-13-2010, 01:06 PM
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I am also very confused as to what the question is.

What exactly do you want to know?
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