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Old 04-30-2017, 09:13 AM
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Im sure this topic has been discussed somewhere along the line, however, i know my opinion has changed with time and im curious what others thoughts are on the matter.

Im talking about courses with 2 tee boxes and 2 baskets defaulting to a "4 course layout".

Two local courses near me, Maple Hill and Borderlands, have this design and im not convinced its the best idea. On the one hand there is the possibility to have 4 unique lines to shape per fairway. On the other hand theres potential for a complete cluster duck when youre trying to get a round in, especially so if youre unable to see the alternate tee location.

What are your thoughts? Is this type of design beneficial? would you just assume do without this type of design? what is the ideal solution for creating diversity on a course without gumming up pace of play? Are we better off with 1 tee and 2 baskets, or 2 tees and 1 basket, 1 tee and multiple basket sleeves?
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Old 04-30-2017, 09:53 AM
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Like all things... it depends. I love the amount of diversity it offers players. Warwick and Maple Hill are great examples of courses that do multiple baskets and tees. They are far enough away from city centers that even when they are crowded, they are not super packed. Now if this course design were in Prospect park in Brooklyn, you might see all kinds of problems(though to be fair, even the object course probably shouldn't be there). Rollin Ridge is a good example of course diversity in a tiny amount of space. They use a very tight amount of great land to its maximum value by having multiple tees and baskets. So available amounts of land and amount of maintenance support can also be a reason to design this way.

I can tell you that with any of those courses if they were designed as multiple sleeves and rotating baskets, I would have been disappointed with certain placements when I went to visit. Much like when I trek all the way out to Tyler and all the pins are in A pin.

So that being said, they both have merits and restrictions. As long as safety is considered in the design, I like to see all the options.
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:00 AM
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Does it matter how much traffic a course gets, or is likely to get?

And can we differentiate between cases where you can see the 2nd tee, and where you can't? In the former case, and where the flow of traffic is essentially the same, I don't see where it would be much of a problem.

Or, at least, a much smaller problem than courses with overlapping layouts, optional alternative holes, and the like.

But I'm just guessing---it's been almost 20 years since I played a course with 2 tees, and 2 baskets in place. Not very common around here.

For what it's worth, for myself, I'd call this a 4-layout course, not a 4-course layout.
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:13 AM
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I think in some cases it does matter solely on how much traffic a course gets. Schenley park in Pittsburgh has a sweet blue tee layout that I never play because of course traffic. You can easily see the white tees from every blue tee, but because of how seldom people use them (or know about them) checkers constantly walk right in front of you while playing a blue tee to start the white tee. If the traffic there were not designed for beginners/amateurs and it were further from the city, I bet I could play more blue tee rounds.
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:34 AM
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From the perspective of tournament play and hosting tournaments, places that have multiple tees and baskets per hole have advantages in that they can change up the layout round to round without moving baskets. From a casual play perspective, I'm not the biggest fan. And that's primarily because of the flow of play.

Even on a not so busy day, there is always a chance of playing a hole where there are two groups teeing off simultaneously from different tees and are unaware of each other (no line of sight between the two tees). It becomes even more problematic if both groups are playing to the same basket.

Maple Hill in particular strikes me as a bit of a nightmare to play casually, even on a mild traffic day. On some holes the different layouts vary enough that two groups playing simultaneously won't cross paths. On others though, tees, fairways and occasionally targets are completely shared between layouts. And that doesn't even take into account the red layout which wanders away from the rest of the course then meanders back again, mostly to avoid the water holes and longest walks. The result is groups playing different layouts at different paces and running into each other more often.

I'm more a fan of one tee, two baskets or two tees, one basket merely for the flow of play. If everyone is following more or less the same path through the course, things seem to work better. Of course, I'm looking at it from a business perspective. I want people to play my course and have fun, not be confused or overwhelmed by things going in all kinds of directions.
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:43 AM
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All three courses where I have two baskets and two tees were redesigns where we already had an older set of baskets. Rather than scrap or sell the old ones, the ones in good shape were refurbed and used in the new layout to provide options for different skill levels or variety. In some locations, a basket can be cheaper than building concrete pads. So two baskets on a hole can be the less expensive way to provide the alternative skill level layout.
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Old 04-30-2017, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Even on a not so busy day, there is always a chance of playing a hole where there are two groups teeing off simultaneously from different tees and are unaware of each other (no line of sight between the two tees). It becomes even more problematic if both groups are playing to the same basket.

.
Admittedly, I have little experience on such courses but wouldn't that require both groups to have finished playing the prior hole at more or less the same time?

Seems that would be a bit unusual (unless 1 basket is a throw or two longer than the other).
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Old 04-30-2017, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Admittedly, I have little experience on such courses but wouldn't that require both groups to have finished playing the prior hole at more or less the same time?

Seems that would be a bit unusual (unless 1 basket is a throw or two longer than the other).
One such instance that I had in mind is on a course where hole 1 has two tees that are separated from each other by dense woods (no seeing each other), and it is conceivable that two groups could leave their cars at more or less the same time, head to different hole 1 tees, and throw without realizing the other was there. Then there's the possibility of a group on round 2 of their day going to one tee from hole 18 while a group just starting their first round is at the other (having come from the parking lot), and their paths will not cross until they get to the middle of fairway 1.

And yes, there are certainly holes where the long basket is so much longer than the short that in the time it takes one group to play past the short basket to the long, a group behind them can play the hole out to the short and meet them at the next tee.

There are also instances where one layout has holes that are exclusive to it. By that I mean that hole 10 is shared by every layout but there are two different hole 11s. Going one way means you play 11 and 12 of that layout, going the other means you only play hole 11 then you both end up at the same tee again which is hole 12 for one layout, hole 13 for another. Eventually you get to another point where the two layouts diverge and the "makeup" hole is involved to get everyone back on in sequence again. If you're not paying close attention, it's easy to get confused, especially when tees have two different numbers assigned to them.
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Old 04-30-2017, 03:33 PM
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Makes sense. I wasn't thinking about Hole 1. As for the rest, I was imagining a course where every hole at 2 tees & 2 baskets in place, but used, for the most part, the same fairway. And assuming the baskets wouldn't be 1 or 2 throws different, for the fact that they both had to be reasonably close to the next set of tees.

I can think of several courses in my region that have overlapping layouts, or optional extra holes inserted in the middle, that can cause problems. One is so lightly played that it rarely does; most of the others, I've played so seldom that I can't attest to how much conflict they actually cause.
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Old 04-30-2017, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
One such instance that I had in mind is on a course where hole 1 has two tees that are separated from each other by dense woods (no seeing each other), and it is conceivable that two groups could leave their cars at more or less the same time, head to different hole 1 tees, and throw without realizing the other was there. Then there's the possibility of a group on round 2 of their day going to one tee from hole 18 while a group just starting their first round is at the other (having come from the parking lot), and their paths will not cross until they get to the middle of fairway 1.
Not just hole 1. Any course where a slow group of (n ≥ 2) players is playing one layout and a faster group of (≤ n) players who start later is playing the other layout has the potential for both groups to end up playing the same hole at the same time, with neither group knowing the other is there. [E.g. Valley Springs 22, where the red/white fairway (dogleg left) Ts into the blue fairway ~200' forward of the blue tee and neither teepad is not visible from the other due to woods and elevation.] Especially if the slow group pauses from time to time to indulge in "heritage activity."
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