#31  
Old 06-24-2021, 10:38 AM
autocrosscrx autocrosscrx is offline
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I didn't know about the no multiple penalty thing. So I learned something today.

I guess my point is that if you calling penalties on people that fall in the mud and touch next to their mini after their shot has landed, then you are setting a standard where you are scrutinizing if MJ established balance before he picks up his mini and probably calling dozens of foot faults and stance penalties and whatever else per round. And I don't think that is the standard that 99% of the people play want. Maybe that is one way to get back to where we can enter leagues and tournaments we want.
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  #32  
Old 06-24-2021, 10:48 AM
dmoore1998 dmoore1998 is offline
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We don't have problems enforcing the rules. Douchebags are gaslighting everyone else saying there is a problem when reasonable people can play a round without any rules issues happening. Take your Hegelian dialectic elsewhere.
Reasonable people who either don't know, or have no interest in enforcing the rules, can always play a round without any "rules issues" happening.

That's a separate question entirely from whether something is actually breaking the rules.

I see this as no different than a pickup basketball game. If the guy dribbling the ball up the court notices he has a shoelace untied...he picks up the ball, ties his shoe, and then starts dribbling again. No issue. But if someone comes onto a rules forum and asks me if those particular actions constitute a double-dribble...the answer is "of course it's a double dribble". Whether self-made groups enforce that is up to them.

There are the actual rules. And then there are the modified/casual rules that groups work out amongst themselves. This forum seems a lot more like the "what are the actual rules" type of question-asking-place...because nobody can answer what your self-made groups actually use/enforce as rules.

Just like I'm pretty sure there are no official rules on "gimmes" within a certain distance...but you're going to catch a disc to the back if you protest when someone starts picking up a couple "parked" discs within our regular group.

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  #33  
Old 06-24-2021, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by dmoore1998 View Post
There are the actual rules. And then there are the modified/casual rules that groups work out amongst themselves. This forum seems a lot more like the "what are the actual rules" type of question-asking-place...because nobody can answer what your self-made groups actually use/enforce as rules.
The issue here isn't determining what the rules are, it is when to call a penalty when the situation is borderline. In any sport, I don't care if it is football or darts or disc golf, if reasonable minds can differ I want the ruling to favor the player without penalty.

Based on the situation in the OP, there actually should be no penalty. He specifically stated that "I still maintained my balance, simply skated forward a little and made contact with my lie". This means he did display balance before advancing, even though that balance was displayed while in motion. Smigles invented a rule out of whole cloth (marker foul?) to try and say there was a penalty. Others are implying that being in motion means you aren't displaying balance, which isn't stated anywhere in the rules. Based on a strict reading of the rules, OP did not deserve a penalty.

I respect that a reasonable person could assume that balance cannot be maintained while in motion. I also think it is reasonable to think OP was truthful in saying he had balance while sliding. I take both reasonable positions and err on the side of the player. This is not a "problem", this is how rules enforcement should be done.
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  #34  
Old 06-24-2021, 11:35 AM
dmoore1998 dmoore1998 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingus View Post
The issue here isn't determining what the rules are, it is when to call a penalty when the situation is borderline. In any sport, I don't care if it is football or darts or disc golf, if reasonable minds can differ I want the ruling to favor the player without penalty.

Based on the situation in the OP, there actually should be no penalty. He specifically stated that "I still maintained my balance, simply skated forward a little and made contact with my lie". This means he did display balance before advancing, even though that balance was displayed while in motion. Smigles invented a rule out of whole cloth (marker foul?) to try and say there was a penalty. Others are implying that being in motion means you aren't displaying balance, which isn't stated anywhere in the rules. Based on a strict reading of the rules, OP did not deserve a penalty.

I respect that a reasonable person could assume that balance cannot be maintained while in motion. I also think it is reasonable to think OP was truthful in saying he had balance while sliding. I take both reasonable positions and err on the side of the player. This is not a "problem", this is how rules enforcement should be done.
806.01B After having released a putt, the player must demonstrate full control of balance behind the marker disc before advancing toward the target. A player who fails to do so has committed a stance violation and receives one penalty throw.

I get your balance argument, I'm not sure I'm seeing your reasoning for the 2nd qualification of the rule. "behind the marker disc before advancing toward the target". OP is sliding, while balanced let's say, but while sliding is advancing toward the target because of the slippage. OP is also no longer behind their marker disc point while doing this.

Are you interpreting his sliding forward toward the target to not be "advancing toward the target"? I'm assuming that your argument for being behind the marker is that at some point during the slide, he was behind the disc. So even if was a split second where he was sliding in a balanced way and behind his disc...that meets the balance criteria and the criteria for being behind his mark?
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  #35  
Old 06-24-2021, 11:53 AM
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Are you interpreting his sliding forward toward the target to not be "advancing toward the target"?
Advancing towards the target means past the lie. You can do a jump putt inside the circle where you jump a couple inches behind your lie and regain balance before advancing past the lie.

Imagine the insanity of saying you cannot advance AT ALL from where you putted. So if your foot slides even a millimeter forward, while still being behind the lie, you get a penalty? Crazy talk.
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  #36  
Old 06-24-2021, 12:02 PM
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peabody peabody is offline
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Based on the situation in the OP, there actually should be no penalty. He specifically stated that "I still maintained my balance, simply skated forward a little and made contact with my lie". .

In a perfect world this might be true. Your foursome doesn't make a call then the next foursome has someone that does make the call.
I believe that touching a marker disc during the throw (even a slide afterwards) is a rules infraction. Did the thrower gain an advantage? (no) Did he intentionally step on the marker?(no) Has the thrower made any foot faults up to this point?
Smiggls might be right. In the spirit of fairness every foot fault has to be called every single time then all the namecalling(my appologies) might stop so peace and love will guide the planets.
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  #37  
Old 06-24-2021, 01:04 PM
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I believe that touching a marker disc during the throw (even a slide afterwards) is a rules infraction. .
So you view a slide as always off balance. I respect that as a reasonable position. I do not feel that way. Do you feel my position is reasonable? If I made my case on the course would you recognize the two reasonable positions and give the benefit to the thrower?
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  #38  
Old 06-24-2021, 01:13 PM
dmoore1998 dmoore1998 is offline
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Advancing towards the target means past the lie. You can do a jump putt inside the circle where you jump a couple inches behind your lie and regain balance before advancing past the lie.

Imagine the insanity of saying you cannot advance AT ALL from where you putted. So if your foot slides even a millimeter forward, while still being behind the lie, you get a penalty? Crazy talk.
Ok, but that's my question to you. Your interpretation of being behind the marker, on balance, BEFORE he advances to the target...is that there's a point during the slide where he's balanced and behind the target line...and then after the point he's established those 2 things is the point at which he goes past his mark (and potentially advances to the target)?

Essentially that the slide is 2 things...or two parts. One part where he's behind his mark and satisfies the rule. And then at another point later in the slide where he crosses his mark?

You can do a jump putt behind your mark, regain balance behind the lie, then move forward toward the target. But that's a movement forward, followed by a specific action (establishing balance behind the target) which satisfies the rule, then moving forward. This is one motion, I'm just trying to get to your logic as to whether you're interpreting that singular motion (the slide) to comprise 2 parts...one which meets the rule, and then one which crosses the mark AFTER satisfying the rule. Or if you're interpreting the mark differently and the sliding past it to be something else in your rationale?
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  #39  
Old 06-24-2021, 01:21 PM
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peabody peabody is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingus View Post
So you view a slide as always off balance. I respect that as a reasonable position. I do not feel that way. Do you feel my position is reasonable? If I made my case on the course would you recognize the two reasonable positions and give the benefit to the thrower?
Perfectly reasonable. Thats the problem with some of the rules. Left to interpretation by the group will result in multiple rulings.
If a call (foot fault) was made then it's too late to do anything about it.
He touched the mini during the throw so it is an infraction. Am I going to call it? Nope

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  #40  
Old 06-24-2021, 01:37 PM
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Ok, but that's my question to you. Your interpretation of being behind the marker, on balance, BEFORE he advances to the target...is that there's a point during the slide where he's balanced and behind the target line...and then after the point he's established those 2 things is the point at which he goes past his mark (and potentially advances to the target)?

Essentially that the slide is 2 things...or two parts. One part where he's behind his mark and satisfies the rule. And then at another point later in the slide where he crosses his mark?

You can do a jump putt behind your mark, regain balance behind the lie, then move forward toward the target. But that's a movement forward, followed by a specific action (establishing balance behind the target) which satisfies the rule, then moving forward. This is one motion, I'm just trying to get to your logic as to whether you're interpreting that singular motion (the slide) to comprise 2 parts...one which meets the rule, and then one which crosses the mark AFTER satisfying the rule. Or if you're interpreting the mark differently and the sliding past it to be something else in your rationale?
You are making this very complicated. OP throws the putt, maintains balance, and slides past the mark, in that order. According to the rule as written no penalty. What you are saying is that you don't consider anyone "in motion" to be displaying balance, therefore the OP threw his putt and slid past the mark without ever displaying balance. That is fine if that is your personal opinion, but nothing in the rule supports you specifically one way or another. Maybe you are correct, maybe I am, until the PDGA addresses it we have two reasonable interpretations.
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